Γιατί έχουμε εκλογές;

[Palavra]

Can we entrust the voters to make the right decisions when irresponsible power hungry politicians, with short term ambitions, can lure them with promises of heaven and earth ? I'm talking about all democracies here and not confining myself to Greece, although I've referred to Greece mainly.

If this were true, it would actually mean that voters are unable to make their own, informed decisions about the political state of affairs. They can't read a newspaper or two, they can't access public records (even if, say, the Bank of Greece posts financial data concerning the economy on the internet), and even if they can, they are still unable to arrive at the right decisions, they are like sheep to be "lured" in the lion's den, so they must be saved from themselves, by an apolitical body that has somehow mastered economy and is never wrong about the decisions they make.

If there were such a choice, I mean if there were one or more persons who are able to rule fairly and take care of everybody's interests, especially the interests of those who are poor and disadvantaged, it would be very, very nice. However, history has shown that no person is perfect, and therefore a people must be able to choose for themselves who they want to govern them; for the same reason, a people must be able to change their government at frequent intervals, and be free in making this choice. The way I see it, freedom and democracy means that people are able to decide for themselves, and live with the consequences of their decisions. Don't you agree?

Are we talking about a dictatorship here ?

In my mind, yes, we are.

 

[pontios]

Well, each to their own then and we don't need to agree. :inno:

 

[Palavra]

Well, each to their own then and we don't need to agree. :inno:

Of course, as long that we both accept that I'm right :twit:
(Before replying, see here on what each colour means :))

 

[drsiebenmal]

Are we talking about a dictatorship here ?

Αναπόφευκτα. Νομοτελειακά.

Αυτό που πρέπει να συνειδητοποιήσουμε είναι ότι η δημοκρατία επιτρέπει στους λαούς τα βραχυπρόθεσμα λάθη, ακόμη και την αυτοκτονία. Δες πώς χειρίστηκαν οι Αθηναίοι, που επέμεναν να ασκούν τη δημοκρατία τους, τον πελοποννησιακό πόλεμο και τη σικελική εκστρατεία. Και όμως: Δεν θριάμβευσε στην ιστορία ως υπόδειγμα το σπαρτιάτικο (που έχει πολλά από τα στοιχεία, με πολλές δικλίδες ασφάλειας κ.λπ. από αυτά που λες) αλλά το αθηναϊκό. Ακριβώς επειδή επιτρέπει τη συμμετοχή και τη συνεισφορά όλων, έξυπνων και χαζών, μορφωμένων και αμόρφωτων, πλούσιων και φτωχών, νέων και γέρων, στο πιο βασικό επίπεδο, που μας εξισώνει όλους: του ανθρώπου.

 

[Palavra]

Ακριβώς - γι' αυτό και δεν συμφωνώ με τις απόψεις που λένε ότι οι ψηφοφόροι «παρασύρονται», ότι «πέφτουν θύμα προπαγάνδας», ότι «φταίει η παιδεία» κτλ. Θέλω να πω, είτε ψηφίζεις με βάση το θυμικό σου είτε με βάση τη λογική σου, η επιλογή είναι δική σου, κανενός άλλου, και η ψήφος σου έχει την ίδια βαρύτητα με την ψήφο όλων των υπολοίπων. Έχεις την ευθύνη της επιλογής σου. Μπορεί κάποιος άλλος να θεωρεί την επιλογή σου κακή, ή επικίνδυνη, δεν μπορεί όμως να ζητά να σου αφαιρεθεί το δικαίωμα να την έχεις αυτήν την επιλογή επειδή κατά τη γνώμη του η δική του επιλογή είναι καλύτερη.

Μάλιστα, οι νεότερες γενιές που έχουν πρόσβαση σε απεριόριστες πηγές ενημέρωσης δεν μπορούν να ζητούν κανένα ελαφρυντικό για τυχόν «ατυχείς» επιλογές τους. Είναι όπως τα λέει ο panadeli: ψήφισες κάποιον που σου είπε «λεφτά υπάρχουν», ενώ είναι σαφή τα σημάδια της κρίσης σε όλο τον πλανήτη; Ζήσε με την επιλογή σου μέχρι τις επόμενες εκλογές.

 

[pontios]

Αναπόφευκτα. Νομοτελειακά.

Αυτό που πρέπει να συνειδητοποιήσουμε είναι ότι η δημοκρατία επιτρέπει στους λαούς τα βραχυπρόθεσμα λάθη, ακόμη και την αυτοκτονία. Δες πώς χειρίστηκαν οι Αθηναίοι, που επέμεναν να ασκούν τη δημοκρατία τους, τον πελοποννησιακό πόλεμο και τη σικελική εκστρατεία. Και όμως: Δεν θριάμβευσε στην ιστορία ως υπόδειγμα το σπαρτιάτικο (που έχει πολλά από τα στοιχεία, με πολλές δικλίδες ασφάλειας κ.λπ. από αυτά που λες) αλλά το αθηναϊκό. Ακριβώς επειδή επιτρέπει τη συμμετοχή και τη συνεισφορά όλων, έξυπνων και χαζών, μορφωμένων και αμόρφωτων, πλούσιων και φτωχών, νέων και γέρων, στο πιο βασικό επίπεδο, που μας εξισώνει όλους: του ανθρώπου.

.. and the politicians lived happily ever after with their booty ; amen in the name of democracy that the wise and caring politicians created for themselves, that their informed voters support, all is well.
Why tamper with perfection ?
What I suggest is radical, but an acceptance of the parlous state of affairs is not ?

 

[Palavra]

.. and the politicians lived happily ever after with their booty ; amen in the name of democracy that the wise and caring politicians created for themselves, that their informed voters support, all is well.
Why tamper with perfection ?

I assume you do know that recently 400,000 people were discovered to be collecting pensions they were not entitled to. Another 1,000 were collecting disability allowances, for being "blind" - one of them actually was a taxi driver. People working in utility companies in Greece collect absurdly large salaries, pensions and lump-sum severance payments, for reasons none other than having voted for the right party. Several thousand other such "voters" have had members of their family appointed as civil servants, in positions that are superfluous and costing us real money. Let's not forget about million others who have not been paying their taxes to this date. Oh, and of course, let's not forget people who have taken loans from banks and grants from the EU, and instead of using them to develop their business, they bought houses for themselves and their families. I could go on.

In my opinion, there is no such thing as a "bad politician", in Greece at least. There are voters knowingly voting for corrupt politicians, and acquiring large benefits from this. The problem in Greece is not that the "bad politicians" have stolen from the "poor people". It is that the insiders of the system, who are part of the Greek people, have used corrupt politicians to steal from the outsiders of the system, who are also part of the Greek people. This is something that the people themselves need to correct, firstly and foremost by starting to care about their state; by paying their taxes, by voting based on what is good for everyone, not just themselves and their children.

How are you going to correct that by giving the power to a totalitarian body? And apart from that, how are you going to ensure that this totalitarian body is not likely to become corrupt, as well?

 

[nickel]

Να πω τη δική μου απλοϊκή σκέψη. Και θα την πω στα ελληνικά (αλλά, Πόντιε, συνέχισε εσύ στα αγγλικά, μου αρέσει). Η πρόταση του Πόντιου έχει μια ορθολογική διάσταση που με θέλγει. Προσπαθώ να σκεφτώ: πώς θα ήταν δυνατό να λειτουργήσει αυτό το πράγμα χωρίς να απειλείται καθόλου η δημοκρατία; Αλλά, από την άλλη, δεν θα πρέπει να συνεχίσει να λειτουργεί η δημοκρατία έτσι που λειτουργεί, γιατί μόνο έτσι, μέσα από πολλά πολλά λάθη, θα εκπαιδευτεί ο κόσμος και δεν θα έχει ανάγκη από επιτροπές σοφών; Αυτό δεν απαιτεί και η εξελικτική διαδικασία; Οπότε αποφάσισα ότι η πρόταση του Πόντιου είναι καλή μόνο για τους βιαστικούς. Ενώ η δημοκρατία είναι πολύ μακρόσυρτη υπόθεση.

 

[pontios]

Well you have faith in the informed public Palavra , so why wouldn't they rob along with their politician role models ?
The people are facing difficulties after all, they may be forced into claiming false entitlements, but when the average person
gets caught there are consequences. Is that fair ?
What is the excuse of the already well off politicians when they steal public funds and get their illegal kickbacks, who have created a democracy to protect themselves ? That's okay ?

 

[Palavra]

Καταλαβαίνω ότι δεν συμφωνούμε, αλλά δεν απαντάς στην απορία μου: πώς θα διασφαλίσεις ότι αυτό το απολυταρχικό σώμα εκλεκτών δεν θα αποτελείται από διεφθαρμένους ανθρώπους; Ποιος θα ελέγχει τους ελέγχοντες;

 

[drsiebenmal]

Ενώ η δημοκρατία είναι πολύ μακρόσυρτη υπόθεση.

Και γι' αυτό κτγμ, μια πολύ μεγάλη πρόκληση για το σήμερα, είναι πώς θα αξιοποιήσει και η δημοκρατία τις υπερταχύτατες τεχνολογίες που χρησιμοποιούν όσοι την πολιορκούν για να κερδίσει το παιχνίδι υπέρ της πολιτικής.

 

[drsiebenmal]

Πόντιε, θα γνωρίζεις ότι στο Ιράν έχουν ένα πολίτευμα που ονομάζεται ισλαμική δημοκρατία. Ας δούμε μερικά βασικά χαρακτηριστικά του:

Έχουν εκλεγμένο αρχηγό κράτους και εκλογές όπου ανταγωνίζονται κόμματα που παίρνουν την εγκριτική σφραγίδα ενός ανώτατου επιβλέποντος οργάνου. Το όργανο αυτό αποτελείται από σοφούς ιερωμένους, με άλλα λόγια, είναι από ανθρώπους του Θεού. Καλούς ανθρώπους που είναι ταγμένοι ανώτερων σκοπών, στην υπηρεσία του Θεού και της θρησκείας τους.

Πόσο κοντά είναι αυτό το πολίτευμα σε αυτό που φαντάζεσαι;

 

[pontios]

Palavra I've just made a simple suggestion and I'm not sure myself how this overseeing body would be set up or who would be monitoring it.
There needs to be checks and balances and heavy penalties for both errant politicians and the apolitical experts on this body I suppose.
I can't agree with you that this overseeing body, is totalitarian, when all it would be doing is ensuring that only responsible governments with properly budgeted costings properly costed budgets will be running things and also keeping its finger in the pulse, not allowing budgets from spiralling etc
If it is totalitarian, then I'm all for this form of totalitarianism vs the democracy that you support.
Anyway we'll continue to disagree (and I'm okay with that) so I bid you and everyone a good night.
(and I hope I've also responded somewhat to your post dr,otherwise I'll resume tomorrow. but I suppose they'd be economic experts).

 

[Palavra]

Πιστεύω πάντως πως η λύση όταν η δημοκρατία δε λειτουργεί σωστά είναι να φτιάξεις τη δημοκρατία, όχι να την αντικαταστήσεις με δικτατορία οποιασδήποτε μορφής.

 

[daeman]

...
Politicians: An apology - Monty Python Flying Circus S3 Ep6

"WE WOULD LIKE TO APOLOGIZE FOR THE WAY IN WHICH POLITICIANS ARE REPRESENTED IN THIS PROGRAMME. IT WAS NEVER OUR INTENTION TO IMPLY THAT POLITICIANS ARE WEAK-KNEED, POLITICAL TIME-SERVERS WHO ARE CONCERNED MORE WITH THEIR PERSONAL VENDETTAS AND PRIVATE POWER STRUGGLES THAN THE PROBLEMS OF GOVERNMENT, NOR TO SUGGEST AT ANY POINT THAT THEY SACRIFICE THEIR CREDIBILITY BY DENYING FREE DEBATE ON VITAL MATTERS IN THE MISTAKEN IMPRESSION THAT PARTY UNITY COMES BEFORE THE WELL-BEING OF THE PEOPLE THEY SUPPOSEDLY REPRESENT NOR TO IMPLY AT ANY STAGE THAT THEY ARE SQUABBLING LITTLE TOADIES WITHOUT AN OUNCE OF CONCERN FOR THE VITAL SOCIAL PROBLEMS OF TODAY. NOR INDEED DO WE INTEND THAT VIEWERS SHOULD CONSIDER THEM AS CRABBY ULCEROUS LITTLE SELF-SEEKING VERMIN WITH FURRY LEGS AND AN EXCESSIVE ADDICTION TO ALCOHOL AND CERTAIN EXPLICIT SEXUAL PRACTICES WHICH SOME PEOPLE MIGHT FIND OFFENSIVE. WE ARE SORRY IF THIS IMPRESSION HAS COME ACROSS."

http://www.montypython.net/scripts/apology-pol.php

 

[pontios]

I think we've exhausted this subject and I'm sorry for exhausting everyone in the process. ;)
Πόντιος (Πιλάτος) είμαι - όποιον θέλω πιλατεύω.:inno: (not).

Final thought and I'm also responding to nickel here who is duly wary of a permanently installed monitoring body and what that would mean for democracy. Please note, I too am not convinced of this idea of mine, I just feel something may be needed that's all.
Εach stock market has its own installed watchdog, in the form of a security commission, which monitors
all publicly listed companies, with the aim of ensuring the public investors' interests are protected, so why not a similar watchdog/monitoring body for the biggest public entity of them all, our government ?
I haven't worked out exactly how it would operate of course.

 

[Themis†]

A word of consolation for you, Pontios. The watchdog has always been there, deciding about everything that really matters. So don't worry. Be happy like everybody else.

 

[bernardina]

The watchdog has always been there, deciding about everything that really matters. So don't worry. Be happy like everybody else.

Why bother... Everything is taken care of, right? So let us all spend our time on something more creative, mind our own business and let the watchdog do their job.
Nice.

 

[pontios]

I just re-read (or reread?) my posts and noticed an obvious mistake, due to a lapse in concentration (resulting from the vigorous discussion, perhaps ), which was not pointed out by anyone, so I thank you all for being so noble, kind and forgiving !
I wrote properly budgeted costings instead of properly costed budgets.
Who were the kind, forgiving people who noticed it, by the way ?

 

[nickel]

Καλημέρα, Θεώρησα ότι εννοούσες properly budgeted costs. :)