μου θες και

[Theseus]

Neikos was kind enough to translate this sentence for me:

— Πώς βγαίνεις έτσι μωρή πατσάβρα, μου θες και ρακέτες με την κυτταρίτιδα.
Look at you, you old bag, playing rackets at the beach with all that cellulite.

It is a very difficult idiom. Can a literal translation be made? I couldn't find it in any dictionary.

Here seems to be other examples from http://www.lifo.gr/confessions/view/262275.

Δεν κατάλαβες καλά που μου θες και τα μοντέλα... και σε δεκάδα κιόλας... θα σου βάλω την κουλούρα και θα πηγαίνουμε μόνο μαζί διακοπές... Αχαΐρευτε! Με παιδεύεις τόσα χρόνια... και τώρα μου θες και τα μοντέλα... τα μελαχρινά που βγαίνουν και σε πακέτο 9 + 1 δώρο... Ου να μου χαθείς!

This paragraph it for me totally unintelligible. What does it mean?:down:

 

[AoratiMelani]

For starters, you can completely ignore the "μου" in these sentences.
It is just emphasis. You may read it as follows:

μου θες και = θες ("και" is also pure emphasis in this case)
ου να μου χαθείς! = να χαθείς! ("ου" is just an exclamation)

Δεν κατάλαβες καλά = you've got it all wrong, you're way off (EDIT: The Duke's rendering below, "you've got some nerve", is far better).
θα σου βάλω την κουλούρα = I'll marry you ("κουλούρα" είναι τα στέφανα που φοράνε στον ορθόδοξο γάμο)

"You're way off there, wanting models.. and by tens... I'll make sure we get married and we'll only go on holiday together... You worthless bum! You've been tormenting me for years... and now you want models... the brunettes that come in a package of nine plus one extra... Get lost!"

Not a very good rendering, I'm afraid. I kept it literal to make it easier for you to relate it to the original text.

 

[Duke_of_Waltham]

One way to unpack the expression in the first example is "you are deluded to think you can play rackets". In the second example, it's more like "you have some nerve, lusting after models". You would thus use this expression to ridicule or castigate another person for expressing desires you consider particularly unreasonable (even comically so).

 

[daeman]

...θα σου βάλω την κουλούρα = I'll marry you ("κουλούρα" είναι τα στέφανα που φοράνε στον ορθόδοξο γάμο).
...

[h=1]περνάω κουλούρα[/h]

 

[Theseus]

Thanks for all three contributions! So the θες is the main element and the μου a kind of "ethic dative", used in Latin and the English of Shakespeare's time, showing and "a certain interest felt by the person indicated".

My Latin grammar describes it thus: "The weakest form of the Dative is the Ethical Dative. Here, the dative pronoun indicates the person who has a general interest in the activity, and when that person is talking to another, "for me" becomes the equivalent of "please" or "I ask you". The usage is colloquial and is confined to certain kinds of situations. Thus, the first person usually means "please"/"I ask you", as above; the second person is used to draw one's interlocutor attention and is translated with phrases like "lo" and "for your pleasure."
This form is not found in English, although it used to be possible —an ethical dative which is misunderstood by the servant at the beginning of Romeo and Juliet makes for a piece of slapstick: "Come, knock me at that door." —so the slave does! :):)

Other examples from Shakespeare are:-
I'll rhyme you so eight years together, —Shakespeare, As You Like It, 3.2
Knock me at this gate. —Shakespeare, Taming of the Shrew, 1.2
Wind me into him, I pray you. —Shakespeare, King Lear, 1.2

The remaining και is —as said above— emphatic.

 

[Earion]

"Ethic dative"? Ιs that what it's called? Interesting, because our schoolbooks on Ancient Greek syntax calle it δοτική χαριστική, and there's also the opposite: δοτική αντιχαριστική—which is exactly what this μου is here. Both belong to the greater category of Δοτική προσωπική.

 

[Theseus]

Hi, Earion! It is also called "the dative of advantage or disadvantage" in English! That matches your terms. It was reasonably common, as I said above, in Shakespeare's time. When we were learning Greek and Latin, we had to say in class when we were translating, the words "to my advantage/to my disadvantage" depending on the context. Artificial but it was a way of drumming it into us and it did make some sort of sense.:)

 

[pontios]

I stand to be corrected..
It's like "you (can't) have your cake and eat it" ....( as the Duke said) to criticise someone for unreasonable behaviour
..I think μου here adds a "your" into it (it's used judgementally).
"You have cellulite and (now) you wan't "your" rackets"
"You've been pawing me all these years, and (now) you want (to chase) your models"

As if that's not bad enough (or good enough for you), now you want to go and add "your" cherry on top to it.That's how I sense it, anyway.
"You want to eat it, but you want to have your cake as well"
:)

 

[Theseus]

Thanks, Pontios. I think that's what I was getting at with "I ask you!" Presumably you are translating παιδεύω as "pawing" (or "tormenting", "pestering").:)

 

[pontios]

I read "χαϊδεύω" instead of "παιδεύω". Με χαϊδεύεις τόσα χρόνια had a nicer ring to it (I had my screen-size/zoom at 75%, if that's any excuse).
Freudian slip or ho-etic licence? :blush: