Πρωτομαγιά

[Theseus]

Part of the ritual on the eve of the first of May is said to involve boys and girls trying garden gates so they can go in and cut some flowers. A boy says at one gate:

Τι γίνεται όμως πάρα μέσα; Αν είναι κρυμμένος μέσα κανείς ζόρικος και βγει έξω;

I am working on a new book called A Modern Greek Reader for Beginners by J. T. Pring--very good but demotic/katharevousa mixed. There are plenty of notes and an excellent vocabulary but this sentence has me stumped. Translations welcome, thanks. :blush:
My initial rendering was '(what) if there is some difficult customer hidden inside and he comes out...' But it is a stab and probably wrong.

 

[daeman]

...
What if some tough person (someone strict, bad-tempered, abusive) is hidden inside and comes out?

So I guess your "difficult customer" actually does the job.

 

[Theseus]

Some of the customs on the Eve of Mayday have no doubt died out. In a description of one particular custom the children have vaulted over someone's hedge & cut the prime roses in his garden. The man pops his head out of the window after the deed is done. He doesn't actually lose his temper but comes out with a series of sarcastic (?) comments:
NΟΙΚΟΚΥΡΗΣ: Τι ωραία! Να φροντίζεις τα τριαντάφυλλά σου όλο το χρόνο, και την Πρωτομαγιά ν' έρχονται και στα κόβουν με το έτσι θέλω! Τι λέτε, παιδιά; δεν κόψατε αρκετά;
ΠΑΙΔΙΑ: Ναι, βέβαια! Σας ευχαριστούμε και του χρόνου νάστε καλά! Θα σας ξανάρθουμε!
ΝΟΙΚΟΚΥΡΗΣ : Στο καλό, παιδιά! Νάστε πάντα χαρούμενα! Και να μας προτιμάτε!
What is the tone of this? There is a note to the effect that the repeated να is exclamatory (?) & that να στα κόβουν is literally 'that they cut them from you(?)'. Is the householder being sarcastic or controlling his obvious annoyance? :curse:

 

[Theseus]

Πρωτομαγιά 2

I have written this note in Πρωτομαγιά because it may have slipped under the λεξιράνταρ.
Some of the customs on the Eve of Mayday have no doubt died out. In a description of one particular custom the children have vaulted over someone's hedge & cut the prime roses in his garden. The man pops his head out of the window after the deed is done. He doesn't actually lose his temper but comes out with a series of sarcastic (?) comments:
NΟΙΚΟΚΥΡΗΣ: Τι ωραία! Να φροντίζεις τα τριαντάφυλλά σου όλο το χρόνο, και την Πρωτομαγιά ν' έρχονται και στα κόβουν με το έτσι θέλω! Τι λέτε, παιδιά; δεν κόψατε αρκετά;
ΠΑΙΔΙΑ: Ναι, βέβαια! Σας ευχαριστούμε και του χρόνου νάστε καλά! Θα σας ξανάρθουμε!
ΝΟΙΚΟΚΥΡΗΣ : Στο καλό, παιδιά! Νάστε πάντα χαρούμενα! Και να μας προτιμάτε!
What is the tone of this? There is a note to the effect that the repeated να is exclamatory (?) & that να στα κόβουν is literally 'that they cut them from you(?)'. Is the householder being sarcastic or controlling his obvious annoyance? :upz::curse:

 

[pontios]

The tone is one of resignation (grinning and bearing it), I think.
But credit where's it's due - I think he's tried to suggest (at least subtly and perhaps sarcastically) to the children to desist or at least think twice next time (perhaps hoping that they will reflect back on this exchange and take the hint when they are older and wiser).

The children - the little pluckers - on the other hand may just be feigning innocence and naivety - so they can play their yearly prank on him?
He's probably giving them the benefit of the doubt - or enjoying the attention and playing along with it.

You can interpret this a number of ways.

 

[pontios]

oops ...second line "where it's due" .... I just noticed it, sorry.

 

[Theseus]

Thanks, Pontios. Can you give me a further comment on the 'exclamatory use of να'? I took the sentence to mean: ''for you to look after your roses all year & on May Day for people to come & cut them off for you without so much as by your leave!' Is that about right? I find this repeated να very hard to translate.:cheek:

 

[Palavra]

NΟΙΚΟΚΥΡΗΣ: Τι ωραία! Να φροντίζεις τα τριαντάφυλλά σου όλο το χρόνο, και την Πρωτομαγιά ν' έρχονται και στα κόβουν με το έτσι θέλω! Τι λέτε, παιδιά; δεν κόψατε αρκετά;
ΠΑΙΔΙΑ: Ναι, βέβαια! Σας ευχαριστούμε και του χρόνου νάστε καλά! Θα σας ξανάρθουμε!
ΝΟΙΚΟΚΥΡΗΣ : Στο καλό, παιδιά! Νάστε πάντα χαρούμενα! Και να μας προτιμάτε!

HOMEOWNER: That's nice! You take care of your roses all year round and on the 1st of May people come and pick them from your garden just because they want to! How about it, kids? Haven't you picked enough, now?
CHILDREN: Yes, sure! Thank you [and may you be well next year so that we can come back and do it again (typical Greek wishes :) )! We will come back!
HOMEOWNER: Godspeed, kids! May you always be happy! And come back next year!

The homewoner's tone is as pontios said. The kids, however, know that he doesn't really begrudge them the flowers, so they are cheerful and thank him for letting them in his garden.

 

[Palavra]

I should add that, as Theseus already suspected, it's a long-standing custom for children to try and steal flowers from other people's gardens to make their 1st of May wreath, and most people with gardens would expect it. It has sort of died out in Athens for obvious reasons, but it still lives on in other parts of Greece. The wreaths remain hung on the door of your home until St' John's day on the 24th of June, where people light fires, burn the (now withered) wreaths and children jump over the fires, trying to jump higher than anyone else.

 

[Duke_of_Waltham]

He definitely sounds sarcastic and annoyed, but also resigned to the fate of his roses. (Conceivably, there could even be some playfulness in there; after all, who knows? Perhaps he did the same thing as a boy.)

I believe the clauses beginning with να are secondary and flow from «Τι ωραία!» (implied «που είναι»). I'd translate the first part as follows (and leave the rest to save myself the embarrassment): "Isn't it nice? To tend your roses all year long, then see them cut on May Day without so much as a by-your-leave! What do you think, children? Haven't you cut enough?"

EDIT: I managed to embarrass myself anyway; I see you've opened a new thread about this, here.

 

[Theseus]

You didn't embarrass yourself, Duke! You have answered the question perfectly. I only put in Πρωτομαγιά 2, because, as I said, the first Πρωτομαγιά seemed to have slipped under the radar. Thanks, Duke.

 

[Theseus]

Thanks for all this information, Palavra. I didn't quite understand the 'exclamatory use of the να'. Now I do, as well as the tone of the passage.

 

[daeman]

... Can you give me a further comment on the 'exclamatory use of να'? ... I find this repeated να very hard to translate.

... NΟΙΚΟΚΥΡΗΣ: Τι ωραία! Να φροντίζεις τα τριαντάφυλλά σου όλο το χρόνο, και την Πρωτομαγιά ν' να έρχονται και να στα κόβουν με το έτσι θέλω! Τι λέτε, παιδιά; δεν κόψατε αρκετά;

In the first part, that να is just a particle, best rendered as "to" in this syntax as the Duke has already very appropriately done:

... I'd translate the first part as follows (and leave the rest to save myself the embarrassment): "Isn't it nice? To tend your roses all year long, then see them cut on May Day without so much as a by-your-leave! What do you think, children? Haven't you cut enough?" ...

An alternative could be: "How nice! Tending your roses ... then seeing them cut..."

By the way, there's a second «να» missing before «κόβουν» as I've added in red above, and the elision of «ν' έρχονται» seems too awkward to me, so I would either avoid it altogether or change it to «να 'ρχονται», since whoever wrote this uses «νάστε» ( < να 'στε < να είστε) twice in the second part.

ΠΑΙΔΙΑ: Ναι, βέβαια! Σας ευχαριστούμε και του χρόνου νάστε καλά! Θα σας ξανάρθουμε!
ΝΟΙΚΟΚΥΡΗΣ : Στο καλό, παιδιά! Νάστε πάντα χαρούμενα! Και να μας προτιμάτε! ...

In this case it's the "tricky" subjunctive in a wishful function, commonly used when wishing someone anything from "Be well" (take care) for "να 'στε καλά" or "Be happy" for "Νάστε πάντα χαρούμενα" to the inviting "Be sure to prefer us next time" for "να μας προτιμάτε". For this one, the use of "may you" by Palavra is the best way to convey the meaning and tone.

Ah, the darling buds of May :

Forever Young - Pete Seeger with the Rivertown Kids (Chimes of Freedom - Amnesty International)

May you grow up to be righteous
May you grow up to be true
May you always know the truth
And see the lights surrounding you
May you always be courageous
Stand upright and be strong
May you stay forever young
Forever young, forever young
May you stay forever young

May your hands always be busy
May your feet always be swift
May you have a strong foundation
When the winds of changes shift
May your heart always be joyful
May your song always be sung
May you stay forever young
Forever young, forever young
May you stay forever young...

Off the top:

Να 'ν' τα χέρια σου γεμάτα
να 'ν' τα πόδια σου γοργά
Σαν αλλάζουνε τα πάντα
να πατάς στη γη γερά
Στην καρδιά πάντα χαρά
το τραγούδι σου να λένε
Νιάτα να 'χεις παντοτινά
παντοτινά, παντοτινά
Νιάτα να 'χεις παντοτινά

---

...EDIT: I managed to embarrass myself anyway; I see you've opened a new thread about this, here.

PS: I've merged the two threads, just to add to the Duke's embarrassment. :devil: I wouldn't shy from the opportunity to embarrass the gentry, particularly when landed in Waltham. Hastings makes haste but the Duke doesn't make waste.
May the fourth be with him.

 

[Theseus]

A pretty good 'off the top' by all accounts! Thanks for the extra information, 'Man, as ever. The only trouble with this little book is that it sometimes has katharevousa elisions (like νάστε & νάρχονται) & a lot of factual material is outdated, such as saying that there are no civil marriages in Greece but that all marriages have to be blessed by a priest, otherwise any such are invalid. But such material is obviously outdated & can easily be checked. The date of the book's first publication is 1964 with a revised edition in 1972. By the way, can't the phrase στο καλό also mean 'go to hell'?

 

[pontios]

Theseus
I'm not sure if I'm making a valid observation, but anyway as an aid to understanding and making sense of the tricky subjunctive "να", you'll find that you can generate a lot of examples by googling "ακούς εκεί να" where the word immediately following "να" will invariably be a verb .. which would basically be the equivalent of "can you believe you (verb) ".

... and the general tenor/feel of the whole sentence thus generated would be ..."can you believe you do "this" and then "that" happens" - i.e., expressing an unwelcome surprise or frustration/annoyance.

It's just that in Greek you can leave out the "can you believe/ακούς εκεί" part and it'll still convey this sense.

But the way the sentence was structured, preceded by "τι ωραία", you'll get the same feel in English anyway...
.. "That's just great! You tend to your roses all year, and then come May Day they just steal them from you at will".

 

[Theseus]

Thanks, Pontios. That's an extremely useful piece of advice. I have been coming across να so frequently & finding it difficult to translate. I'll use this formula in future & let you know how I get on!

 

[daeman]

...
Careful, because there's no single formula for "να". It has so many uses and functions in so many different collocations and situations that applying any formula for all those would be like trying to standardize "to" in English. And then some.
This one does work in this case, though.

 

[pontios]

I hope it helps, Theseus.
I'm not sure how many "you do this and then that happens" examples actually come up .. but the search "ακους εκει να" will always bring up examples you can study, and then as an exercise you can see if the "ακους εκει"/ can you believe" part can be omitted by structuring the sentence another way which would still retain the sense of unwelcome surprise/annoyance frustration.

If you know what I mean.

And I just noticed daeman's post above....

 

[Duke_of_Waltham]

A note here: I used "Isn't it nice?" mostly because it segues nicely into the following "To tend..."; otherwise, I'd consider "How nice!" a more suitable translation because the original phrase, on its own, is not clearly sarcastic in the text. One might use «Τι ωραία!» perfectly straight in Greek, but "Isn't it nice?" not so much in English.

By the way, can't the phrase στο καλό also mean 'go to hell'?

If you use it sarcastically, sure. Or at the very least, "get lost".

I wouldn't shy from the opportunity to embarrass the gentry, particularly when landed in Waltham. Hastings makes haste but the Duke doesn't make waste.

By counting me amongst the gentry, you embarrass none but yourself, sir. :twit: