cougr
¥
Pontios, it's no big deal but somehow this didn't seem right to me and truly enough when I checked with similar/identical pages omitted "traditional custodians" came out on top by a factor of 1.2.
traditional custodians
- Thread starter nefeligidi
- Start date
Pontios, it's no big deal but somehow this didn't seem right to me and truly enough when I checked with similar/identical pages omitted "traditional custodians" came out on top by a factor of 1.2.
pontios
Well-known member
Hi, cougr.
That's interesting. My search skills must be lacking - but we probably can't cover all the word variations?
re: custodians vs land owners/landowners,
Personally, I've rarely encountered the term "traditional custodians" - it's invariably been "traditional land owners/landowners", or "traditional aboriginal owners/land owners" - maybe even "aboriginal land owners".
That's been my experience, anyway.
Traditional land owners is a widely/readily understood and everyday term - if an average Australian heard the term "traditional custodians", or even "traditional custodians of the land" on a news report, I think they would be confused by it (they may not even consider it a synonymous term). Wouldn't you agree?
That's interesting. My search skills must be lacking - but we probably can't cover all the word variations?
re: custodians vs land owners/landowners,
Personally, I've rarely encountered the term "traditional custodians" - it's invariably been "traditional land owners/landowners", or "traditional aboriginal owners/land owners" - maybe even "aboriginal land owners".
That's been my experience, anyway.
Traditional land owners is a widely/readily understood and everyday term - if an average Australian heard the term "traditional custodians", or even "traditional custodians of the land" on a news report, I think they would be confused by it (they may not even consider it a synonymous term). Wouldn't you agree?
cougr
¥
I think it's arguable as to whether one term is more readily or widely used than the other and if I were to hazard a guess I'd say that the average Australian wouldn't have a clue as to the meaning of any of the above terms.:devil: The other point is that the terms traditional owners and traditional custodians - although occasionally used synonymously - aren't strictly synonymous or interchangeable. Although it is frequently the case that the traditional owners are vested with the responsibility of custodianship, this isn't necessarily so and it often occurs that the traditional custodians of a region aren't the traditional owners.
Ναι, όσον αφορά τους ιθαγενείς της Αυστραλίας και οι δύο όροι χρησιμοποιούνται εναλλακτικά εδώ πέρα.
pontios
Well-known member
Και το σκέτο "traditional owners" (χωρίς το land) αρκεί - αμέσως θα καταλάβουμε περί τίνος πρόκειται, εδώ στην Αυστραλία, αν σχετίζεται με τους Αβορίγινες.
I only introduced the term "traditional owner/land owner" in the discussion, as I thought it was somewhat relevant.
I agree, cougr - the terms are synonymous to the extent that the traditional custodians (usually senior representatives of the local Aboriginal community) are traditional owners.
So when the custodians welcome visitors = the traditional owners are welcoming visitors (that's what I meant, of course, by synonymous).
Traditional owners = παραδοσιακοί ιδιοκτήτες της περιοχής;
Χρόνια Πολλά
- Χρήστος
bernardina
Moderator
Ύστερα από όλη αυτή την άκρως διαφωτιστική συζήτηση, σ' εμένα τουλάχιστον γεννάται το ερώτημα: όλοι αυτοί οι όροι που προαναφέρθηκαν είναι ένας politically correct τρόπος για να πει κανείς "γηγενείς" ή "ιθαγενείς" ή ό,τι άλλο λέμε τελοσπάντων για να αναφερθούμε σ' αυτούς που ζούσαν σε έναν τόπο πριν καταφθάσουν οι άποικοι/έποικοι/κατακτητές κλπ;
Επειδή, από τα πρώτα κείμενα (που έβαλα σε λινκ), φαίνεται ότι είναι κάποιοι εντεταλμένοι, άτομα με ιδιαίτερο κύρος και ρόλο μέσα στην κοινότητα (κάτι σαν γηραιοί, ή σοφοί ή πρεσβύτες ή κάτι ανάλογο, που ασφαλώς δεν έχει αποκλειστικά σχέση με τη μεγάλη ηλικία).
Χρόνια πολλά, Χρήστο. Και σε όλους.
Επειδή, από τα πρώτα κείμενα (που έβαλα σε λινκ), φαίνεται ότι είναι κάποιοι εντεταλμένοι, άτομα με ιδιαίτερο κύρος και ρόλο μέσα στην κοινότητα (κάτι σαν γηραιοί, ή σοφοί ή πρεσβύτες ή κάτι ανάλογο, που ασφαλώς δεν έχει αποκλειστικά σχέση με τη μεγάλη ηλικία).
Χρόνια πολλά, Χρήστο. Και σε όλους.
cougr
¥
Για περισσότερη αποσαφήνιση επί του θέματος προσθέτω και τα ακόλουθα:
What are traditional owners?
The term traditional owners is often used when describing Aboriginal peoples’ connection to the land, but also in the native title process.
The roots of the term traditional owner seem to lie in the Aboriginal Land Rights (Northern Territory) Act 1976, which established ways for Aboriginal people to claim land in the territory on the basis that they were the “traditional Aboriginal owners” of the land [29]. It is an English language term tied to the Aboriginal decision-making process.
According to the Act the definition of ‘traditional Aboriginal owners’ is “...a local descent group of Aboriginals who:
(a) have common spiritual affiliations to a site on the land, being affiliations that place the group under a primary spiritual responsibility for that site and for the land; and
(b) are entitled by Aboriginal tradition to forage as of right over that land.”
Aboriginal people also include law men and women who have an ongoing involvement in any future process or uses of country. They don’t need to live on the land to be considered a traditional owner [64].
Note: The term is often used quite arbitrarily. Before you label someone a “traditional owner” make sure that they are okay with that.
(www.creativespirits.info)
Aboriginal traditional custodians means Aboriginal people, who through connection by
descent to a group or clan, have responsibility for caring for a particular country. (www.dec.wa.gov.au)
...It is important to note that the Aboriginal custodians of a sacred site may not necessarily be the traditional landowners because of the nature of Aboriginal social organization.....(Digging It Up Down Under: A Practical Guide to Doing Archaeology in Australia
By Claire Smith, Heather Burke, p.51)
What are traditional owners?
The term traditional owners is often used when describing Aboriginal peoples’ connection to the land, but also in the native title process.
The roots of the term traditional owner seem to lie in the Aboriginal Land Rights (Northern Territory) Act 1976, which established ways for Aboriginal people to claim land in the territory on the basis that they were the “traditional Aboriginal owners” of the land [29]. It is an English language term tied to the Aboriginal decision-making process.
According to the Act the definition of ‘traditional Aboriginal owners’ is “...a local descent group of Aboriginals who:
(a) have common spiritual affiliations to a site on the land, being affiliations that place the group under a primary spiritual responsibility for that site and for the land; and
(b) are entitled by Aboriginal tradition to forage as of right over that land.”
Aboriginal people also include law men and women who have an ongoing involvement in any future process or uses of country. They don’t need to live on the land to be considered a traditional owner [64].
Note: The term is often used quite arbitrarily. Before you label someone a “traditional owner” make sure that they are okay with that.
(www.creativespirits.info)
Aboriginal traditional custodians means Aboriginal people, who through connection by
descent to a group or clan, have responsibility for caring for a particular country. (www.dec.wa.gov.au)
...It is important to note that the Aboriginal custodians of a sacred site may not necessarily be the traditional landowners because of the nature of Aboriginal social organization.....(Digging It Up Down Under: A Practical Guide to Doing Archaeology in Australia
By Claire Smith, Heather Burke, p.51)
pontios
Well-known member
Γεια σου, bernardina.
Ο τίτλος "traditional owners" αφορά το νομικό τους καθεστώς.
Ένα από τα δικαιώματα τους -
Οι "traditional owners" καλούνται να συμμετάσχουν στη διαδικασία διαβούλευσης που προηγείται την χορήγηση μιας άδειας εξόρυξης στα εδάφη τους - και έχουν το δικαίωμα να την αρνηθούν.
Από ό,τι κατάλαβα ..
Οι "traditional custodians" είναι, στις περισσότερες περιπτώσεις, elders and traditional landholders (γηραιοί/παραδοσιακοί ιδιοκτήτες της περιοχής), αλλά όχι πάντα - όπως επισήμανε o cougr #28(I stand corrected*) - το οποίο σημαίνει ότι θα πρέπει (αυτοί οι custodians) επίσης να είναι traditional land owners", εάν πρόκειται να απολαμβάνουν τα ίδια δικαιώματα.
Όσον αφορά τους πολιτικά ορθούς όρους, εδώ είναι ένα ενδιαφέρον άρθρο -
http://www.crikey.com.au/2012/08/15/indigenous-aboriginal-or-aborigine-its-not-black-and-white/
*I still can't fathom how you can have traditional custodians without them being traditional landowners - in what way/sense are they traditional , then? - why not simply custodians (without "traditional")? - but I notice that it's in reference to sacred sites, not land.
pontios
Well-known member
I also note ... what cougr pointed out (at the bottom, #28) refers to "aboriginal custodians", as distinct from traditional custodians.
So maybe traditional custodians = traditional landholders and Elders/representatives, after all - and this would make more sense to me. Anyway, I give up :cheek:.
So maybe traditional custodians = traditional landholders and Elders/representatives, after all - and this would make more sense to me. Anyway, I give up :cheek:.
Ενίοτε και δημογέροντες.