ολόμαυρη

[pontios]

Without meaning to offend ...
You’re quick to judge me, doctor. I just responded to the question you asked, which is what could it mean (the ορθό/virtuous/upright connotation). I realise you quickly dismissed it, but you did consider this possibility. So this theory of mine wasn’t at all far fetched - I was in fact responding to what you had brought up.
And, Palavra, I hear what you’re saying - that the blood has already been shed, but that verse could be saying; make sure the blood you’ve shed (and that courses through you) remains virtuous, keep it virtuous, can’t it? Is it a crazy possibility, and can it be categorically ruled out?

 

[pontios]

,... it should be past tense,” coursed through you” if they’ve all been wiped out.
I should have read the poem before I posted, and I respect you all enough to zip it up ... but I had to respond.
Enough said, and apologies.

 

[Palavra]

He is quick to judge you because your question indicates that you have not read either poem from beginning to end, and that you do not know about the battle of Psarra, so you cannot understand the cross textual references to Solomos' poem. To be noted: this is absolutely normal and is not meant as a jab at you, so I am not trying to make you feel bad. However, this is what is inferred from your question.

In Greece, we are taught Solomos' poem at school (clarification on Β' γυμνασίου: A student attending the 2nd class of Gymnasium is 14 years old). This has been going on for decades: Drsiebenmal and I belong to different generations, but we were both taught the poem at school. The poem is analysed, read out at school plays held to celebrate the 25th of March, and used in many other texts in the manner that Ritsos does. If you google "Στων Ψαρών την ολόμαυρη ράχη" you will find literally thousands of texts using this verse in hundreds of cross textual references.

Ritsos, on the other hand, is also taught in schools and universities. His poetry has very specific characteristics, that are closely linked with the time he lived in and his politics. His writings carry a specific historical weight for Greece.

So, I do understand why you asked the first time, I absolutely realise that all the foregoing connotations can be easily missed, but I do not understand why you insist.

Edit: just saw that you answered in the meantime. Let's leave it at that, then :)

 

[pontios]

I only insisted as I thought that other ορθό/upright possibility that doctor7x had broached (and then asked what sense it made) was still not completely ruled out. But I now realise that he was asking what sense it made given the entire population was wiped out.
Of course I didn’t realise how intimately you knew the poem and its significance.

Apologies again.

 

[Palavra]

There's nothing to apologise about :)

I just would like to add that Ritsos wrote this poem after the coup in Cyprus, followed by the invasion by Turkey, which in its turn led to the fall of the Greek junta and to the restoration of democracy in Greece. It also led to Cyprus being cut in two, thousands of people being expelled from their homes and dying. It is an event in Greek and Cypriot history that has not been thoroughly assimilated yet, as its repercussions carry on to this day. It has many political ramifications and it can lead to very heated discussions as to the role played by various actors in Greece and Cyprus. As I'm writing these lines, I can see the many objections and clarifications that could be offered by other people reading, so I'll just leave it at that.

But I would recommend at least this Wikipedia link for a very broad introduction to the events in question: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_invasion_of_Cyprus

 

[pontios]

Thanks, Palavra. I’ll have a read when I get a chance.
Theseus is probably eating his popcorn and shaking his head, as he reads the latest in this thread.
Free live theatre.

Clickety-click.... 1400th post!

 

[drsiebenmal]

You’re quick to judge me, doctor. I just responded to the question you asked, which is what could it mean (the ορθό/virtuous/upright connotation). I realise you quickly dismissed it, but you did consider this possibility. So this theory of mine wasn’t at all far fetched - I was in fact responding to what you had brought up.

Dear Pontios, my question was, as we say, a rhetoric one, as I practically answered it myself. However, you were kind to offer another idea, which I also considered before dismissing it. It's the only way proposals get dismissed here, after at least a quick consideration.

And certainly no offense taken... :)

 

[Theseus]

How about combining the main two ideas and translating: 'keeqp fresh before your eyes the tears, keep fresh as well the blood'. Or 'keep fixed before your eyes the tears, keep fixed as well the blood'? The metaphor behind 'ορθός' is 'upright, on its feet, not fallen down,alive'. So I have changed the metaphor to 'fresh' viz. 'not faded, recent, not changed by time' while 'fixed' is 'unmovable, unchanging, unchanged', as 'to fix in one's memory'. Comments?

 

[pontios]

My first and final attempt, Theseus. Please feel free to discuss or dismiss/ignore at your discretion (we're having a friendly and interesting discussion, and trying to make heads and tails of this cryptic verse).

I think this is what the poet is saying. I think this is how you've interpreted it, too?

Το δάκρυ κράτησέ το ορθό, κράτησε και το αίμα

Keep (the memory of) the tears and the blood vivid/true/fresh/alive

Μη σου θολώσει την καρδιά της αρνησιάς το ρέμα.

Lest the stream of denial blurs your mind/heart ...

Lest you try to forget or deny the tragic memory (as a way of coping with it, I suppose) and start to blur the memory and it becomes hazy in your mind.

So what the poet, I think is saying is: keep the memory alive and true, don't try to deny it or try to alter the memory in any way.
Remember it as it is/was - remember all the tragedy and the pain.

 

[Theseus]

Thanks, Pontios, and the good Dr as well as, of course, Palαύρα. I have assimilated all the substance of the suggestions made and now think that the translation has got to keep the imagery of the original Greek of Ritsos. So:-

Keep firm before your eyes the tears, keep firm as well the blood
in case the torrent of denial should mind and heart becloud.

Comments?:)

 

[pontios]

Thanks, Pontios, and the good Dr as well as, of course, Palαύρα. I have assimilated all the substance of the suggestions made and now think that the translation has got to keep the imagery of the original Greek of Ritsos. So:-

Keep firm before your eyes the tears, keep firm as well the blood
in case the torrent of denial should mind and heart becloud.

Comments?:)

..at least five characters ... :up:

 

[pontios]

Also, I'm not sure how and if this works (maybe if we allow a bit of poetic/artistic licence and forget about rhyming the lines - but heart and blood do rhyme somewhat?).

Just as an alternative, anyway ..

Hold on to the tear(s), also hold on to the blood
Don't let the flow of denial skew the heart

hold true the tear(s), also hold true the blood
don't let the flow of denial deceive the heart

hold as-is the tear, also hold as-is the blood
don't let the flow of denial deceive the heart

hold exactly the tear, also hold exactly the blood ....... I was also thinking of "accurately" instead of "exactly"
don't let the flow of denial deceive/hoodwink the heart

 

[pontios]

As an afterthought, I'm wondering if .... hold truly the tear, hold truly the blood ...... works better than .....hold true the tear, hold true the blood (that's if it works in the first place, of course).

 

[Theseus]

Thanks for all the suggestions, Pontios. I have had to translate the whole poem by Ritsos into rhyming couplets: that was the task assigned to me by a friend who is publishing an Anthology of bilingual Greek-English poems from the whole gamut of Greek literature, ancient as well as modern. So 'blood' and 'becloud is the rhyme here as in:-
Huge piles of smoke the hemisphere becloud;
The sun shines darkness and its rival blood.

Perhaps better is the rhyme of 'blood' with ''flood'.

So perhaps:-

Keep vigorous the tears of grief, keep vigorous the blood
in case your heart should be beclouded by denial's flood.

 

[pontios]

I like “denial’s flood” and “keep vigorous” ...or maybe “keep vivid” (if one less syllable better suits the rhythm).

This might also work? ... (I think “the heart” is more in keeping with the original, vs “your heart”).

Keep vigorous/vivid the tears, (also) keep vigorous/vivid the blood
In case/Lest the heart be skewed/muddled by denial’s (inevitable) flood

 

[Theseus]

Thank you, pontios. I have now rephrased it to:-

Keep vivid all the tears of grief, keep vivid all the blood
in case the heart should be beclouded by denial's flood.

I think, as you say, the σου is an 'ethic dative' as explained at

https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/ethical_dative.

The length of the English metrical line I have used is fourteen syllables--sometimes fifteen as in the original. Ritsos wrote in this metre, so I gather, for his poems of lament, like Epitaphios. :)

Ρέμα in the dictionaries I have is defined as a mountain stream in a gorge, which is narrow and fast-moving: more a torrent than a current or stream. Hence my first attempt as 'torrent' and now 'flood', which matches both αίμα & ρέμα/blood & flood' and also keeps close to Ritsos's words & the meaning of them.

 

[pontios]

I think, as you say, the σου is an 'ethic dative' as explained at

I’m not 100% sure .... maybe if someone could clarify. It might actually be “your heart” - I was trying to decide.

 

[Theseus]

I am now convinced that the σου is an ethic dative, exactly as μας is in the first and last stanzas:-

Κουράγιο, μικροκόρη μας, πού μας εγίνεις μάνα...

As Neikos wrote:-

Εγώ θα διαφωνήσω πάντως με τη μετάφραση του "μας εγίνεις μάνα" ως "...our mother". Νομίζω ότι το "μας" θα μπορούσε να παραλειφθεί, αφού μάλλον χρησιμοποιείται όπως σε φράσεις του τύπου "Πολύ μάγκας μας έγινες τελευταία.". Δεν νομίζω ότι εννοεί πως η Κύπρος από κόρη έγινε μάνα των Ελλήνων, αλλά μάνα σκέτο. Τώρα το τι θέλει να πει με τη μεταφορά περί μητρότητας, δεν είναι κ πολύ σαφές. Επίσης, οι πολιτικές κ ιστορικές αναφορές που ψάχνεις, δεν νομίζω ότι υπάρχουν στο ποίημα, Θησέα. Κι όσες υπάρχουν είναι προφανείς, δεν πιστεύω ότι κάνει νύξεις για τον Μακάριο ή τη χούντα.

Μας here means 'to our advantage', so omit it as Neikos says.

Since το δάκρυ & το αίμα have no σου, this fact also makes it probable that the σου is an ethic dative and can be omitted in translation. The ethic dative implies that something is 'for the advantage/disadvantage' of the pronoun, hence 'the blurring/clouding of the heart' is 'to your disadvantage'. As with the μας omit it in translation.
It was common in older English to render it thus:- 'hark/pray/look you' cf I'll rhyme you so eight years together.”— As You Like It. The dative of the personal pronouns is used to show a certain interest felt by the person indicated. In modern English Shakespeare means:-

'I could rhyme like that for eight years in a row'.

It should be noted that this poem by Ritsos had as part of its title that it was 'a devotional dedication to Makarios.:)

 

[pontios]

Thanks, Theseus.
I didn't know about the "ethic dative" ... it was more intuitive.

I interpreted as -- (and let me know if it makes any sense)
Don't let denial's flood do that to you .. i.e., don't let it alter/blur the memory on you, rather than alter/blur your memory, which is implied.

It's like "pull a swifty on you" .. it works in a similar way to that: and, in this instance, don't let it alter/blur the memory on you ...sort of.

It's probably worth noting that, "Turn the table on you" .. also has that advantage/disadvantage thing happening.

 

[pontios]

"turn the tables on you "...