urban legend, urban myth = αστικός μύθος, περιαστικός μύθος, σύγχρονος μύθος

[nickel]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urban_legend
An urban legend or an urban myth is a form of modern folklore consisting of stories thought to be factual by those circulating them. The term is often used to mean something akin to an "apocryphal story." Like all folklore, urban legends are not necessarily false, but they are often distorted, exaggerated, or sensationalized over time.

Despite its name, a typical urban legend does not necessarily originate in an urban setting. The term is simply used to differentiate modern legend from traditional folklore in preindustrial times. For this reason, sociologists and folklorists prefer the term "contemporary legend."

Urban legends are sometimes repeated in news stories and, in recent years, distributed by e-mail. People frequently allege that such tales happened to a "friend of a friend"—so often, in fact, that "friend of a friend," ("FOAF") has become a commonly used term when recounting this type of story...
(Ολόκληρο το άρθρο έχει ενδιαφέρον.)

Έχω πει ότι προσωπικά χρησιμοποιώ τον όρο «σύγχρονος μύθος» (εκτός αν κάτι με υποχρεώνει να μεταφράσω ακριβέστατα τον αγγλικό όρο).

Έχουμε τώρα κι αυτό το ερώτημα:

Ευκαιρία να ρωτήσω και κάτι που με απασχολεί εδώ και καιρό: Ποια η διαφορά μεταξύ αστικών και περιαστικών μύθων; Τη χρησιμοποιείτε εσείς αυτήν τη λεπτή διάκριση όταν μιλάτε ή γράφετε;

Εγώ δεν χρησιμοποιώ τη διάκριση, πρωτίστως επειδή την αγνοώ. Ξέρετε κάτι περισσότερο;

 

[sarant]

Εχω χρησιμοποιήσει και τα δύο, αστικός και περιαστικός. Στην αρχή είχα βάλει περιαστικός, επειδή κάπου το είχα δει. Στο βιβλίο, το έκανα αστικός, επειδή ακριβώς δεν είδα να υπάρχει διάκριση. Τελικά όλο και περισσότερο πείθομαι ότι δίκιο έχει ο Λίγγρης και ότι "σύγχρονος μύθος" είναι καλύτερο

 

[Elena]

Τελικά όλο και περισσότερο πείθομαι ότι δίκιο έχει ο Λίγγρης και ότι "σύγχρονος μύθος" είναι καλύτερο.

Σαφώς, αν και δε νομίζω ότι χρησιμοποιείται ακόμα και το «σύγχρονος μύθος» στην καθομιλουμένη -μόνο σε έντυπα, αποτέλεσμα μετάφρασης κ.λπ. Εξάλλου:

The term urban myth is preferred in some languages such as Mexican Spanish, where conventional coinage is "mito urbano" rather than "leyenda urbana." In French, urban legends are usually called rumeurs d'Orléans ("Orleans' rumours") after Edgar Morin's work. "Légende contemporaine" is an acceptable translation of the English idiom, instead of "légende urbaine", which is an improper and meaningless verbatim translation, though used by some French sociologists or journalists. But neither expression is commonly used: for ordinary French people, the more genuine terms rumeur or canular (hoax), not to mention more colloquial and expressive words, describe this phenomenon of "viral spread tall story" properly enough.


Eρώτηση: έχει μεταφραστεί το «La Rumeur d’Orléans » του Μορέν στα ελληνικά;

 

[Count Baltar]

Συγγνώμη, αλλά σε κάποιο άλλο φόρουμ ο αγαπητότατος Νίκελ δεν μας είχε κάνει μιαν ανάλυση ότι το urban legend πρέπει να αποδίδεται "μύθευμα";

 

[nickel]

Μα δεν το έχω αφήσει το «μύθευμα» (ούτε το «παραμύθι»). Αυτά χρησιμοποιώ περισσότερο. Και έπειτα τον «σύγχρονο μύθο». Αλλά τα πρώτα είναι πιο γενικά. (Πολλά παραμύθια κρατάνε από τη λαϊκή παράδοση, δεν ξεκίνησαν όλα στο διαδίκτυο.) Και εδώ ρωτάω: έχει διαφορά ο «περιαστικός» από τον «αστικό»;

Αν τώρα αναφέρεσαι στον τίτλο, ναι, ίσως θα έπρεπε να βάλω πρώτο τον «σύγχρονο» αν ήθελα να επιβάλω άποψη. I'm getting soft.

 

[Zazula]

I'm getting soft.

That, plus you' re not answering my question.

Για τους αγγλόφωνους η διάκριση μεταξύ myth και legend στις συγκεκριμένες χρήσεις έχει νόημα. Εμείς κολλάμε με το "μύθο" και τα παράγωγά του (μύθευμα, παραμύθι), και αφήνουμε -με συνοπτικές διαδικασίες- στην άκρη το "θρύλο".

Snopes Glossary​

Myth vs. Legend

Though these two terms are often used interchangably, they have separate and specific meanings to folklorists. Both myths and legends are stories with casts of characters and plotlines followed to their conclusions, yet their core elements are different. Myths are tales about the acts of godlike or supernatural beings and/or magical animals which serve to explain the creation of the world or how certain elements of our world came to be (e.g., how the raccoon got its mask) and take place in the far reaches of time (often expressed as "In the days when the world was new"). By contrast, legends are accounts of purported incidents involving ordinary people in more recent times. Although both types of stories are told as true, they are not necessarily believed to be literal truth by either the tellers or their audiences.

Urban legend

Urban legends are a specific class of legend, differentiated from "ordinary" legends by their being provided and believed as accounts of actual incidents that befell or were witnessed by someone the teller almost knows (e.g., his sister's hairdresser's mechanic). These tales are told as true, local, and recent occurrences, and often contain names of places or entities located within the teller's neighborhood or surrounding region.

Urban legends are narratives which put our fears and concerns into the form of stories or are tales which we use to confirm the rightness of our world view. As cautionary tales they warn us against engaging in risky behaviors by pointing out what has supposedly happened to others who did what we might be tempted to try. Other legends confirm our belief that it's a big, bad world out there, one awash with crazed killers, lurking terrorists, unscrupulous companies out to make a buck at any cost, and a government that doesn't give a damn.

Folks commonly equate 'urban legend' with 'false' (i.e., "Oh, that's an urban legend!"). Though the vast majority of such tales are pure invention, a handful do turn out to be based on real incidents, and whether or not something actually happened has no bearing on its status as an urban legend. What lifts true tales of this type out of the world of news and into the genre of contemporary lore is the blurring of details and multiplicity of claims that the events happened locally, alterations which take place as the stories are passed through countless hands. Though there might indeed have been an original actual event, it clearly did not happen to as many people or in as many places as the various recountings of it would have us believe.

Ostension

Ostension is a folkloric term for the process of unwittingly acting out or mimicking the greater part (if not the entirety) of an urban legend that is already part of the body of lore. More simply, if the events described in an urban legend which had been around since 1950 actually did indeed spontaneously play out in real life in 1992, that would be an example of ostension.

For example, author Douglas Adams tells the "packet of biscuits" tale in his 1984 novel, So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish, and has since recounted the anecdote on numerous occasions, claiming it happened to him in 1976 at a station in Cambridge. Yet even if we believe his is a true account (celebrities have been known to star themselves or their close acquaintances in urban legends — the "dead rabbit replaced" tale has been claimed by Johnny Carson of his neighbor, William Shatner of his co-author, and actor Michael Landon and singer Marc Anthony of themselves), his experience only copied a legend that was already in existence, because that same tale had been circulated in Great Britain since at least 1972.

Pseudo-ostension is the act of deliberately acting out an existing urban legend (e.g., children secreting pins in their Halloween treats to throw a scare into the community or pranksters in Pulaski, Virginia, placing syringes in payphone coin return slots in 1999).

What are Urban Legends?​

Urban legends are best described as cautionary or moralistic tales passed along by those who believe (or claim) the incidents befell either folks they know personally or acquaintances of friends or family members.

Whereas the setting of more traditional legends places them in the realm of long ago, urban legends are set against the backdrop of contemporary times — the stories take place in shopping malls and coed dormitories and feature such up-to-date bogeymen as terrorists, AIDS, and inner-city gangs. Though some of these tales go back a century or more, their details are continually being updated to keep them current with the times; the horse and buggy of bygone days becomes the BMW of today.

The legends we tell reflect current societal concerns and fears as well as confirm the rightness of our views. It is through such stories that we attempt to make sense of our world, which at times can appear to be capricious and dangerous. As cautionary tales, urban legends warn us against engaging in risky behaviors by pointing out what has supposedly happened to others who did what we might be tempted try. Other legends confirm our belief that it's a big, bad world out there, one awash with crazed killers, drug addicts, unscrupulous companies out to make a buck at any cost, and a government that doesn't give a damn.

Legends of the genre are passed along in both oral and written form. You'll hear them over coffee and find them forwarded to you in e-mail or pinned to the bulletin board in your church. New details are often added and old ones dropped or modified as each new teller regales his circle of acquaintance with the yarn. Consequently, the same story can exist simultaneously in a number of forms, with details shifting depending on who tells it. A number of these tales tend to localize, with the provision of additional details that place the event in a nearby town. (These details, of course, change with every telling.) Complicating matters further, many humorous urban legends also exist as jokes or funny stories — the same story told as a snippet of gossip about the town's mechanic in one village will be presented as a boldfaced joke not about anyone in particular in another.

By definition, legends are stories and, as such, feature casts of characters, plotlines, and denouements. Because they lack these elements, other forms of contemporary lore (eg. e-mailed warnings, odd facts, folk beliefs) cannot properly be termed urban legends even though they do fall into the general subset of contemporary lore, which itself is a sub-category of folklore.

A common mistake is the equation of 'urban legend' with 'false' (i.e., "Oh, that's an urban legend!"). Though the vast majority of such tales are pure invention, a tiny handful do turn out to be based on real incidents. What moves true tales of this type out of the world of news and into the genre of contemporary lore is the blurring of details and multiplicity of claims that the reported incidents happened locally, alterations which take place as the stories are passed through countless hands. Though there might indeed have been an original actual event, it clearly did not happen to as many people or in as many places as the various recountings of it would have one believe.

Despite our being heartily mistrustful of anything found in the newspaper, the vast majority of us tend to unquestioningly believe urban legends. Why? Because invariably it's either a dear friend or someone we look up to doing the telling. Furthermore, that person swears a friend of hers knows the actual person it happened to. As such, this isn't just news, it's practically first-hand news. Because it rides in on the back of someone we trust, it skirts past our usual skepticism.

Reliance on these personal ties plays a great part in why we believe the stories we do. Urban legends are passed along by people we trust implicitly, so it never occurs to us to doubt them. While it is true just about everyone we cherish feels the same way about us and so would never lie to us, it does not follow that everything they say is always the truth. People can be mistaken or misinformed, a detail the proponents of the "My mom would never lie about a thing like that, so it must be true" theory fail to take into account.

Because urban legends make good telling (and who doesn't like being in the spotlight, looked up to as the one who knows all the really great stories?), it's almost guaranteed these tales will outlive us all.

 

[drsiebenmal]

Τι ωραίο να πιάνεις νήμα από την εποχή που δεν ήσουν καν μέλος στη Λεξιλογία (αντί να ανοίγεις καινούργιο)...

Και πώς θα πούμε το apocryphal story; Η «απόκρυφη» ιστορία είναι μάλλον ψευδόφιλη απόδοση, ή ψεύτικη / πλαστή / πλασματική ιστορία μοιάζει κάπως υπερβολικά επίπεδη.

«Αστικός» μύθος δεν μπορεί να είναι πάντα (π.χ. στη χρήση που το συναντώ «There’s an apocryphal story about Charlemagne seeing Vikings near the end of his reign.»). «Ατεκμηρίωτη αφήγηση», ίσως; Ένας «μύθος της εποχής»;

 

[sarant]

Τι ωραίο να πιάνεις νήμα από την εποχή που δεν ήσουν καν μέλος στη Λεξιλογία (αντί να ανοίγεις καινούργιο)...

Και πώς θα πούμε το apocryphal story; Η «απόκρυφη» ιστορία είναι μάλλον ψευδόφιλη απόδοση, ή ψεύτικη / πλαστή / πλασματική ιστορία μοιάζει κάπως υπερβολικά επίπεδη.

«Αστικός» μύθος δεν μπορεί να είναι πάντα (π.χ. στη χρήση που το συναντώ «There’s an apocryphal story about Charlemagne seeing Vikings near the end of his reign.»). «Ατεκμηρίωτη αφήγηση», ίσως; Ένας «μύθος της εποχής»;

Η π.Dr. εποχή της Λεξιλογίας :)

Αλλά δεν λέμε "απόκρυφα Ευαγγέλια";

 

[drsiebenmal]

Αλλά δεν λέμε "απόκρυφα Ευαγγέλια";

Ναι, αλλά είναι το ίδιο; Απόκρυφα ευαγγέλια είναι υπαρκτά ευαγγέλια που απλώς βρίσκονται εκτός του αναγνωρισμένου κανόνα. Μια apocryphal story δεν είναι όμως μια εξιστόρηση πραγματικού γεγονότος που απλώς δεν έχει περάσει σε κάποιον επίσημο κανόνα.

 

[Themis†]

Λάβε και τους οβολούς μου:
"Σύμφωνα με μια ανεπιβεβαίωτη παράδοση...", "Παραδίδεται, χωρίς [έγκυρη/άλλη] επιβεβαίωση, ότι...", "Θρυλείται [μάλιστα] ότι...".

 

[Marinos]

«Αστικός» μύθος δεν μπορεί να είναι πάντα (π.χ. στη χρήση που το συναντώ «There’s an apocryphal story about Charlemagne seeing Vikings near the end of his reign.»). «Ατεκμηρίωτη αφήγηση», ίσως; Ένας «μύθος της εποχής»;

Μια λεπτή διαφορά: η ιστορία με τον Καρλομάγνο είναι, εικάζω, σύγχρονος μύθος, όχι της εποχής. Από αυτούς που λέγονται αλλά κανείς δεν μπορεί να βρει μια παραπομπή πριν τον 20ό αιώνα. Οπότε φέρνει προς αστικό μύθο.

 

[Earion]

απόκρυφος μύθος

 

[Marinos]

Ξέχασα κι εγώ να προσθέσω, ότι το επίθετο απόκρυφος με αυτή την έννοια μού είναι οικείο, κι ας είναι ψευδόφιλο.

 

[drsiebenmal]

Μια λεπτή διαφορά: η ιστορία με τον Καρλομάγνο είναι, εικάζω, σύγχρονος μύθος, όχι της εποχής. Από αυτούς που λέγονται αλλά κανείς δεν μπορεί να βρει μια παραπομπή πριν τον 20ό αιώνα. Οπότε φέρνει προς αστικό μύθο.

Κατά το βιβλίο μου, "A monk named Notker, writing in about 887 (Charlemagne died in 814) claimed that the emperor was visiting what is now modern-day France near the coastline and saw a lone Viking ship. κλπ"...

 

[Marinos]

Κατά το βιβλίο μου, "A monk named Notker, writing in about 887 (Charlemagne died in 814) claimed that the emperor was visiting what is now modern-day France near the coastline and saw a lone Viking ship. κλπ"...

Α, ΟΚ. Πάντως υπάρχουν οι ιστορίες που λέω και δεν είμαι σίγουρος πώς να τις πω ("νατσουλισμούς" θα έλεγε ίσως ο sarant). Μια που μ' αρέσει ιδιαίτερα είναι αυτή που εξηγεί γιατί το Μπλε Τζαμί έχει, μόνο αυτό στην Πόλη, έξι μιναρέδες αντί για τέσσερις: ο σουλτάνος Αχμέτ είπε να έχει χρυσούς (altın) μιναρέδες, ο αρχιτέκτονας, ξέροντας ότι αυτό ήταν οικονομικά αδύνατο, έκανε πως άκουσε "έξι" (altı).

 

[drsiebenmal]

«Νατσουλισμός» είναι ωραίος χαρακτηρισμός, αλλά απόκρυφος... :)

 

[nickel]

Θα αρκούσε, στη συγκεκριμένη περίπτωση, «Υπάρχει μια ανεπιβεβαίωτη ιστορία για τον Καρλομάγνο...». Δεν θα ενοχλούσε κανέναν.

 

[drsiebenmal]

Μα προφανώς υπάρχουν πολλές μεταφραστικές λύσεις, αλλά την ευκαιρία να γράψω σε νήμα π.Δρ. πού θα την έβρισκα ξανά; :)