Για πολλή ώρα ή για ώρα πολλή;
- Thread starter Theseus
- Start date
...
Not in meaning, but in style and rhythm (and perhaps but not necessarily in emphasis). The first version is the common one, adjective + noun. The second one is more poetic, so to speak, with a reversal not unlike, say, "a very long time" vs "time immemorial", although that reversal 'noun + adjective' is rather not so unusual in Greek as it is in English, e.g. in Lexi:
cf. η κρεβατοκάμαρα ήταν μια κάμαρα σκοτεινή, Post-positive adjectives.
But ώρα καλή is different in meaning and usage from καλή ώρα.
Although «αυτοί οι Ρωμιοί είναι τρελοί» differs from «είναι τρελοί αυτοί οι Ρωμιοί» only on which component is emphasized.
Not in meaning, but in style and rhythm (and perhaps but not necessarily in emphasis). The first version is the common one, adjective + noun. The second one is more poetic, so to speak, with a reversal not unlike, say, "a very long time" vs "time immemorial", although that reversal 'noun + adjective' is rather not so unusual in Greek as it is in English, e.g. in Lexi:
cf. η κρεβατοκάμαρα ήταν μια κάμαρα σκοτεινή, Post-positive adjectives.
But ώρα καλή is different in meaning and usage from καλή ώρα.
Although «αυτοί οι Ρωμιοί είναι τρελοί» differs from «είναι τρελοί αυτοί οι Ρωμιοί» only on which component is emphasized.
Theseus
¥
This passage from G. Ioannou is about a mystery woman in black who came every year at the time when mulberries were ripe & ready for eating, asking for a little water from the well in the courtyard. From her behaviour she was well-mannered and also beautiful.: διατηρούσε πάνω της ίχνη μιας μεγάλης αρχοντικής ομορφιάς. When offered the drink of water from the well, she would hand back the cup & never would omit to say in Turkish to us the customary prayer:- 'May God repay you the great good [το μεγάλο καλό]. 'Ποιο μεγάλο καλό: Ιδέα δεν είχαμε. Presumably something like 'Jazak Allahu khair'. The text says that they understood the drift of the prayer. Why, if they knew that she had wished them the great good, didn't they realise it was the gift of cold water?
Καθόταν ήσυχα για ώρα πολλή στο κατώφλι της αυλής, κι αντί να κοιτάζει κατά το δρόμο ή τουλάχιστο κατά το πλαϊνό σπίτι του Κεμάλ, αυτή στραμμένη έριχνε κλεφτές ματιές προς το δικό μας σπίτι, παραμιλώντας σιγανά. Πότε πότε έκλεινε τα μάτια και το πρόσωπό της γινόταν μακρινό, καθώς συλλάβιζε ονόματα παράξενα. Thanks, 'Man, for your explaining the distinction in the second phrase in bold--so I might translate it as 'for many an hour'. Isn't the 'μεγάλο καλό' obvious? And the last sentence in bold seems odd--'from time to time, she would shut her eyes & her face would become distant'. If she was shutting her eyes, you wouldn't see them! How does a face become distant? I am probably overthinking these phrases or, more likely, mistranslating them. Comments, please.
A further point, I couldn't find the distinction between καλή ώρα & ώρα καλή from the references you gave, D, Is it easy to explain simply to a sometimes simpleton? And does στραμμένη mean 'facing', doing double duty with το δικό μας σπίτι δηλ. 'facing our house, she would take furtive glances toward it?
Καθόταν ήσυχα για ώρα πολλή στο κατώφλι της αυλής, κι αντί να κοιτάζει κατά το δρόμο ή τουλάχιστο κατά το πλαϊνό σπίτι του Κεμάλ, αυτή στραμμένη έριχνε κλεφτές ματιές προς το δικό μας σπίτι, παραμιλώντας σιγανά. Πότε πότε έκλεινε τα μάτια και το πρόσωπό της γινόταν μακρινό, καθώς συλλάβιζε ονόματα παράξενα. Thanks, 'Man, for your explaining the distinction in the second phrase in bold--so I might translate it as 'for many an hour'. Isn't the 'μεγάλο καλό' obvious? And the last sentence in bold seems odd--'from time to time, she would shut her eyes & her face would become distant'. If she was shutting her eyes, you wouldn't see them! How does a face become distant? I am probably overthinking these phrases or, more likely, mistranslating them. Comments, please.
A further point, I couldn't find the distinction between καλή ώρα & ώρα καλή from the references you gave, D, Is it easy to explain simply to a sometimes simpleton? And does στραμμένη mean 'facing', doing double duty with το δικό μας σπίτι δηλ. 'facing our house, she would take furtive glances toward it?
"What was that 'great good'? We had no idea." I think the author presents them as unable to believe that something so simple as offering some fresh water from the well to someone could be considered as such an important thing to warrant the phrase "μεγάλο καλό". Kind, instinctively generous people, who thought nothing of sharing anything they had in abundance (water from the well) with anyone who asked for it.
"She used to sit quietly for a long time by the courtyard gate, and instead of looking toward the street or at least toward Kemal's house nearby, she was facing the other way and stealing furtive glances at our house, whispering to herself. Now and then, she closed her eyes and her expression became distant, detached, while she was softly mumbling strange names."
As any actor knows, the eyes are crucial to convey an expression. But truly good actors are able to convey it even with eyes shut (eyes wide shut). Watch Oscar Isaac in the video below, καληώρα.
Καλή ώρα (or even καληώρα) means "a time like this", a colorful way to say "for example".
Ώρα καλή is a kind of farewell, literally "may the hour be good", i.e... well... "Fare thee well."
For which another equivalent (λίγο πιο πεζό, as it were) would be "Καλό δρόμο" or "Καλοστρατιά" as we say in Crete.
«Ώρα καλή στην πλώρα σου, κερά, κι αγέρας στα πανιά σου·
σε μακρινούς γιαλούς και σε βαθιά νερά γοργαρμενίζεις!»
~ The Odyssey by Kazantzakis
Fare thee well (Dink's Song / Inside Llewyn Davis OST) - Oscar Isaac
Theseus
¥
Thanks for this full & very helpful answer. The vocabulary for the passage was useless as ever. Κατώφλι was given as meaning 'doorstep'! How this αρχόντισσα was sitting 'on the doorstep' of the courtyard was puzzling, if not grotesque. This passage was full of atmosphere & suggestive: at the beginning of the piece, η αρχόντισσα was never seen again. Why not? Had she died? At mulberry time she had come but now no more. Who was she? Courteous & grateful for a drink of well water, she would eat the mulberries offered her σιγανά, αλλά με ζωηρή ευχαρίστηση. Thanks, D.
...
Κατώφλι does mean doorstep (doorsill, threshold) and we may picture the courtyard gate as having one or two steps in front of it, as is common in many houses with a front yard, and we may call that a κατώφλι but I'd rather explain it as an entrance or threshold between the private property and the public space beyond.
Κατώφλι does mean doorstep (doorsill, threshold) and we may picture the courtyard gate as having one or two steps in front of it, as is common in many houses with a front yard, and we may call that a κατώφλι but I'd rather explain it as an entrance or threshold between the private property and the public space beyond.
Theseus
¥
Thanks, D. Αυλή can also mean a garden, can't it? The new passage I have started on writes:- Η αυλή κατηφορίζε σχηματίζοντας μια στενωσιά, μετά ξάνοιγε κι έφτανε μέχρι τα σκαλοπάτια της γειτόνισσας. This is about a man, digging himself out of the snow, whose next door was an οικόπεδο & on the other side (so I gather) lady neighbour.
