Όλ' εύραμε καλύτερα τα λόγια του Μπαρμπούτα κ' έτσι μείναμ' εδώ, στα Χαλάσματα
- Thread starter Theseus
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SBE
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Theseus, I agree with Daeman that you might not be learning many useful things for contemporary conversation purposes, however they are always fun to read. I haven't read any Krystallis in a long time, but when I did, as long as I got the general meaning, I didn't bother with every single word. In fact I was happy to come across words that I might have heard but never seen in print.
I can't see how they possibly could; I really can't imagine what twisted brain would use this type of text for foreigners learning Greek -for exams, no less!- unless it had been previously and thorougly analysed in some textbook. Not only are some of the words dated, but they are local to the writer's region of origin, with Turkish, Aromanian, Albanian or Italian roots, as Daeman wrote.
As I said before, it's like learning English from an early 20th century Northern Scottish traveller's musings on local lore.
As SBE said, not all of us understand all of the text all the time; as long as you get the general meaning, you go on, even if you don't know some of the words.
SBE
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I am assuming, Theseus, that when this text was used in the Modern Greek O-level tests it included a small glossary.
Also, I am told that the old Modern Greek O and A levels were quite tough, like all foreign language tests, and the objective was advanced communication in the target language, but modern school exams have been toned down and the main aim is communication as a tourist. The rise of foreign language university degrees ab initio is probably an indication of that (a friend's son in the UK is now applying for a degree in French and Italian for Sept 17 and my friend was telling me that apart from French and Spanish, where an A-level in the corresponding language is expected, all other courses do not require any prior linguistic knowledge of the language studied. This is quite different from her experience as a German undergraduate candidate 25 years ago). In some UK universities I am told you can get degrees in foreign language literature(s) by studying the literature only through translation.
Anything to avoid an empty seat and the corresponding government subsidy, I'd say, but that't a story for the political discussions section.
Also, I am told that the old Modern Greek O and A levels were quite tough, like all foreign language tests, and the objective was advanced communication in the target language, but modern school exams have been toned down and the main aim is communication as a tourist. The rise of foreign language university degrees ab initio is probably an indication of that (a friend's son in the UK is now applying for a degree in French and Italian for Sept 17 and my friend was telling me that apart from French and Spanish, where an A-level in the corresponding language is expected, all other courses do not require any prior linguistic knowledge of the language studied. This is quite different from her experience as a German undergraduate candidate 25 years ago). In some UK universities I am told you can get degrees in foreign language literature(s) by studying the literature only through translation.
Anything to avoid an empty seat and the corresponding government subsidy, I'd say, but that't a story for the political discussions section.
Theseus
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I quite agree with the above. When I go to Greece I want to speak about ordinary things & not abortion, pollution, global warming & gender issues -- all 'A' level topics for oral exams (all, no doubt important but hardly the stuff of cultural uniqueness). This is one of the reasons I am studying these obscure passages. They have something of the Greek life & soul, of former times perhaps, but nonetheless riveting & in many ways profound. One of the earliest Latin poets, Ennius, who knew three languages said that he thus had three hearts.
SBE
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That's OK if you go to Greece as a tourist, where you will be getting to know friendly locals (friendly only to Western tourists, I must add) and imagine you are in a time bubble of more innocent times. These texts are a glimpse into a world that shaped daily life in Greece today. But if you wanted to do a university degree in modern Greek language and culture (which is what A-levels are about), you would need to have the vocabulary to debate Greek current affairs, which include abortion, pollution and gender issues.
Theseus
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Anyone who watches the news can hardly live in any innocent time bubble but modern Western civilisation is very much orientated to city life & samey. Our vocabulary has become overloaded with new words which often mean absolutely nothing or veil sinister realities. Lenin talked about 'the liquidation of dissident elements in the population; fine, until you realise that it means killing those who disagree with you. I have taught Latin & Greek for very many years. Latin is the story of a whole civilisation & culture from beginning to end, curiously modern in its barbarities also. But the literature of any people is part of its uniqueness, like Shakespeare & Bunyan, whom we still study to remind us where we come from. At university in a modern Greek course you study the literature of its people. Thus the writers are alive in the present. I know a lot of Welsh & Scottish Gaelic. Native speakers cannot even understand the meaning of the thousands of new words rained almost daily on them to cope with so-called modern reality. As has been wisely said, democracy includes the voice of the dead: the crosses on their tombstones are their votes. And they teach us not to walk around in a haze of amnesia about our past.
Theseus
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Reading the above, I think it probably sounds unduly harsh but that was not my intention. Less provocatively put, I think that modern urban civilisation has become monotonous in its interests. From Athens to Jerusalem & in London too (where you live), the same issues are debated. I agree with you about the purpose of modern A level: it is important to debate these issues but to understand a people means to know about their literature, to read their epitaphs & often to look at the issues rural people find important -- in short, their history & culture. I have heard even intelligent students complaining about the topics they have to debate orally, not because of the content but because they are all familiar topics they have studied in GCSE R.E. When I studied modern languages, i ended with knowing a lot about the literature but was hopeless in any oral exam because this was counted as of lesser importance. Today's courses are excellent in this regard but the literature studied needs to be wider, Believe it or not, my daughter in A level history had to study Hitler & Stalin. Horrible & depressing subjects, if that is all they study but important too, if somewhat unbalanced. I apologise if I sounded critical of you, when you had made some very valid points. :down::mellow:
Theseus
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I have just bought -- in fact, it was delivered this very day -- Kazantzakis's Βίος και Πολιτεία. Ι would love suggestions but it is sometimes very difficult to find sellers of Greek books in the UK. I tried to find Argo but failed. The only seller I could get it from delivered books in Greece alone.
Thank you for all the help which you have given. It is much appreciated.
Thank you for all the help which you have given. It is much appreciated.
SBE
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Theseus, no offence at all. I didn't even think you sounded harsh. In fact I was thinking I might have overdone it a bit.
As for reading literature, don't forget that most Greek students of my age studied modern Greek literature through anthologies, not whole books. That way you get an idea of what you like and might decide to take it further.
Anyway, if you want recommendations, on my Kindle I have the following:
Κοσμάς Πολίτης, Eroica & Λεμονοδάσος
Κωνσταντίνος Θεοτόκης, Η τιμή και το χρήμα
Α. Παπαδιαμάντης, Η φόνισσα
Καρκαβίτσας, Ο ζητιανος
They were all downloaded for free, although I am not sure where from, and they are all short novels (no patience any more). I would recommend the first two for a learner.
As for reading literature, don't forget that most Greek students of my age studied modern Greek literature through anthologies, not whole books. That way you get an idea of what you like and might decide to take it further.
Anyway, if you want recommendations, on my Kindle I have the following:
Κοσμάς Πολίτης, Eroica & Λεμονοδάσος
Κωνσταντίνος Θεοτόκης, Η τιμή και το χρήμα
Α. Παπαδιαμάντης, Η φόνισσα
Καρκαβίτσας, Ο ζητιανος
They were all downloaded for free, although I am not sure where from, and they are all short novels (no patience any more). I would recommend the first two for a learner.
Some of SBE's suggestions are free on Project Gutenberg:
Karkavitsas
Papadiamantes
I'd also like to suggest Μ. Καραγάτσης, Ο κίτρινος φάκελος.
Karkavitsas
Papadiamantes
I'd also like to suggest Μ. Καραγάτσης, Ο κίτρινος φάκελος.
Philip
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The suggestions by Pal and SBE look exactly like my University reading list from the 60s. Nice to know they are still classics. If you would like something more recent, ω Θησεύ, you might be interested in the Inspector Haritos series of crime novels by Petros Markaris. A couple of them have been translated ino English, and one was dramatised and broadcast on radio 3 over two episodes in late August. As well as the whodunnit aspect, there is social commentary on the political situation and good interaction between the dramatis personae
I should note that I only suggested the above because I have a feeling that they better suit Theseus' tastes :) Markaris is one of my favourites, and his more recent books are very interesting since he paints a fairly vivid picture of the last couple of decades in Greece (The Crisis Trilogy, for instance); his language is also very good, especially for advanced learners.
Might I also suggest this thread?
Might I also suggest this thread?
Hm, at least a dozen "better not" texts for non-Greek students among them, however, because of old or idiomatic forms of language.
I love the early Markaris. It's a happy coincidence that his two books translated by David Connolly are among the early ones: Late-night News (Νυχτερινό δελτίο) and Zone Defence (Άμυνα ζώνης). Especially Che Committed Suicide (Ο Τσε αυτοκτόνησε) remains for me unsurpassed.