An egg unbroke, a horse unrode, a girl unwed

[Alexandra]

Από την ταινία Viva Zapata του Ηλία Καζάν, 1952.

That's how these people go about getting married.
Do you believe the saying: An egg unbroke, a horse unrode, a girl unwed?
I believe that a man is fire, and a woman fuel.
And she who is born beautiful, is born married.

Τι εννοεί ο Τζον Στάινμπεκ, στον οποίο ανήκει το σενάριο; Η ανύπαντρη κοπέλα είναι σαν αβγό που δεν το έσπασε κανείς και σαν άλογο που δεν το καβάλησε κανείς; Δηλαδή, άχρηστη; Ή λάθος το καταλαβαίνω;

 

[drsiebenmal]

Μάλλον άθικτα, ανέγγιχτα, αχρησιμοποίητα πράγματα εννοεί.

 

[dominotheory]

Μάλλον άθικτα, ανέγγιχτα, αχρησιμοποίητα πράγματα εννοεί.

+1

Όπως, δηλαδή, το άλογο αποκτά αξία όταν ιππεύεται και το αυγό όταν τρώγεται, έτσι κι η κοπέλα όταν παντρεύεται.

 

[drsiebenmal]

Όπως, δηλαδή, το άλογο αποκτά αξία όταν ιππεύεται και το αυγό όταν τρώγεται, έτσι κι η κοπέλα όταν παντρεύεται.

Με παρόμοια, αλλά πιο φλύαρη διατύπωση ίσως και ότι ο σκοπός του αλόγου είναι να... και του αβγού είναι να... και της κοπέλας είναι να...

 

[dominotheory]

Με παρόμοια, αλλά πιο φλύαρη διατύπωση ίσως και ότι ο σκοπός του αλόγου είναι να... και του αβγού είναι να... και της κοπέλας είναι να...

Συμφωνώ. Επίσης, μου περνάνε από το μυαλό αποδόσεις του τύπου:

Πιστεύεις, αυτό που λένε, ότι «γυναίκα αστεφάνωτη, φαΐ αφάγωτο»;
Πιστεύεις, αυτό που λένε, ότι «κοπέλα στο ράφι, τι να την κάνεις»;

 

[Alexandra]

Άρα σωστή ήταν η αρχική μου σκέψη, ότι όλα αυτά τα πράγματα είναι για να χρησιμοποιούνται: το αβγό πρέπει να σπάσει, το άλογο να καβαληθεί και η κοπέλα να παντρευτεί, αλλιώς τι να τα κάνεις;

 

[nickel]

Ή:
Το αβγό θέλει φάγωμα, το άλογο καβάλημα και το κορίτσι γάμο.

(Το «θέλει» με τη σημασία «το αβγό πρέπει να το φας» κλπ.)

 

[azimuthios]

Εναλλακτικά και subtitle-friendly: Φάε τ' αβγό, καβάλα τ' άλογο, πάντρεψε το κορίτσι.

 

[Earion]

Elías Domínguez Barajas. The Function of Proverbs in Discourse: The Case of a Mexican Transnational Social Network, (Βερολίνο και Νέα Υόρκη: De Gruyter, 2010), σσ. 66-67.

Like most people .... the members of the L... social network use proverbs often in their conversations. This practice has a long tradition in Mexico, as knowledge and use of proverbs has traditionally been seen as evidence of sharp wit, facility of expression, and adherence to traditional values. John Steinbeck captured this discursive practice in his script for the film Viva Zapata! which was ultimately brought to the screen by director Εlia Kazan and producer D. F. Zanuck in 1952. Although the film is not an original product of Mexican cinema, which was at that time in its golden ago. Steinbeck’s sympathetic treatment of the heroic figure, the mostly faithful tracing of the historical facts, and the inclusion of genuine songs, local customs and attire makes it seem as though it could have been.

What is more. Steinbeck appears to have translated actual Spanish proverbs instead of using their English equivalents, which makes the scene depicting the use of proverbs to gauge social affinities that much more plausible and contextual appealing. For instance, one of the proverbs uttered in the film comments on the link between a man’s garments and the treatment he receives. The proverb as stated in the film seems more akin to the common rhyming Spanish proverb. Conforme ven el traje, tratan al paje [as they see the outfit, they treat the page] than to its English equivalent, It is the clothes that make the man. Similarly, rather than use the English proverb, One can’t make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear, the film uses a literal translation of the popular Spanish proverb, Aunque la mono se vista de seda, mona se queda [Even if the ape dresses in silk, she remains an ape]. Finally, the Zapata character makes one out of two separate Spanish proverbs when he says, “I believe that a man is fire, and a woman fuel, and she who is born beautiful, is born married.” Those common proverbs are El hombre es fuego, la mujer estopa, viene el diablo y sopla [Man is fire, woman kindling, the devil comes and fans], and A la mujer bella y honesta, casarse poco le cuesta [To the beautiful and honest woman, getting married is of little effort].

The scene in question presents the Mexican revolutionary hero, Emiliano Zapata, as a gentleman caller who has been rejected previously as a suitor for Josefa, the daughter of a well-to-do merchant. After laying claim to fame as an exceptional general of the revolutionary army, Zapata returns to ask for Josefa’s hand. Thus, the fictional Zapata finds himself sitting in the wealthy family’s parlor with his sweetheart, her nursemaid, her mother, her father, and even —apparently— her grandmother.

Indicating the importance of propriety in the delicate matter of courtship, Josefa’s mother sits conspicuously between her daughter and the suitor. She acts as a physical barrier and as a discursive filter by prompting Josefa’s utterances with nods and gestures.

Zapata is depicted initially as being out of his element when he asks Josefa directly if she has missed him. The women appear taken aback by his brazenness, and Josefa deftly redirects the conversation to take the more indirect route characteristic of good manners by saying, ‘It is said “A warrior’s shield is his sweetheart’s heart.”’ He, in turn, is befuddled by the response, so Josefa, rather than explain and defeat the purpose of testing his wit and social compatibility, simply adds another proverb, but identifies it as such: ‘We have a proverb, “A man well-dressed is a man well thought of.”‘ This time Zapata doesn’t disappoint and responds in kind “A monkey in silk is still a monkey,” which earns him what could be seen as an ironic nod of approval from his future father-in-law. He furthers his cause by uttering a compliment in proverbial form. “When love and beauty come into the house, then throw out the lamp!”

Josefa then tests his biases by asking if he agrees with the saying, “A horse unrode, an egg unbroke, a girl unwed,” to which he replies, “I believe that a man is fire and a woman fuel, and she who is born beautiful is born married.” The women smile approvingly, but Zapata, growing impatient with the obliqueness of the dialogue, and in keeping with his characterization as a man of action and forthrightness, asks Josefa if they can go for a walk. The women frown at the suggestion, and Zapata resignedly says, “A whipped dog is a wiser dog,” which earns him yet another approving nod from his future father-in-law.

What is important about the scene it that it shows how Zapata’s proverbs expand and affirm the values expressed by his sweetheart. The relevance and harmony of his proverbs in relation to those of Josefa win him the approval of his would-be in-laws. The film thus depicts how proverbs are used to communicate and make manifest points of solidarity for the interlocutors.

 

[nickel]

Μπράβο, ό,τι πρέπει ήταν αυτό.

 

[sarant]

Για την παροιμία με το α*γό μου αρέσει η εκδοχή του Νίκελ, αλλά η άλλη παροιμία με τον διάβολο και τη φωτιά, τον άντρα και τη γυναίκα, υπάρχει σε πολλές γλώσσες, αν και στα ελληνικά ο Πολίτης λέει ότι αυτή που παραδίδεται στον Βενιζέλο, δεν είναι γνήσια:

https://books.google.lu/books?id=z0AlBgAAQBAJ&pg=PA237#v=onepage&q&f=false