Explanations and extra information in parentheses

[pontios]

Good morning.

I'm not sure how to frame my query, so I'm just going to use the following examples instead, if that's OK (sorry):

Brackets:

tiger (large carnivorous animal) .. this one is straightforward.

I'm more interested in the following two, where we have place names and transliterations:

The Arch of Galerius (or Kamara in Greek) .. are quotation marks required around Kamara and is "in Greek" here necessary (seeing it is a well-known Greek landmark)?

rusks ("paximadia" in Greek) ..do I need the quotation marks here?

 

[cougr]

Hi pontios,

I don't know that I have the definitive answer to your query but my experience has been that in the case of unfamiliar foreign words, these are more often than not italicized rather than placed in quotation marks.

 

[Earion]

The Arch of Galerius (or Kamara in Greek) .. are quotation marks required around Kamara and is "in Greek" here necessary (seeing it is a well-known Greek landmark)?

Negative to both questions.

rusks ("paximadia" in Greek) ..do I need the quotation marks here?

No. You should follow cougr's suggestion and italicize.

 

[nickel]

Actually, I find pontios's versions quite acceptable:

The Arch of Galerius (or Kamara in Greek)
No quotation marks, but I'd keep "in Greek".

rusks ("paximadia" in Greek)
Italics without quotation marks is preferable, but in pontios's kind of non-academic text one can often find foreign terms in quotation marks.

 

[Hellegennes]

There are also cases when you can't italicize.

 

[pontios]

Thanks, guys - that's very helpful.

The consensus seems to be to italicise foreign terms, but the quotation marks are also acceptable in my case (non-academic).

So one last example (just to make sure I've got it):

The Greek Resistance (Antistasi in Greek) .... right?

 

[drsiebenmal]

Αυτό θα μπορούσε να γίνει και: The Greek Antistasi (Greek for Resistance)...

 

[daeman]

Αυτό θα μπορούσε να γίνει και: The Greek Antistasi (Greek for Resistance)...

+1.

Especially if you wanted to give a foreign flavour to your text, you could even define it first as the Dr suggests and use it in Greek (transliterated, of course, and preferrably in italics) thereafter.

 

[pontios]

+1.

Especially if you wanted to give a foreign flavour to your text, you could even define it first as the Dr suggests and use it in Greek (transliterated, of course, and preferrably in italics) thereafter.

That's brilliant, thank you.

An interesting one would be "ouzo and meze":
They enjoyed an ouzo and meze. They enjoyed an ouzo and meze.
Everyone knows "ouzo", of course, but am I wrong in thinking that the lesser known "meze" should be italicised?

 

[drsiebenmal]

I would italicize both ouzo and meze here, since they build an entity. Of course, ouzo me meze (or ouzo-me-meze, Nickel?) would be even better... :)

 

[cougr]

That's brilliant, thank you.

An interesting one would be "ouzo and meze":
They enjoyed an ouzo and meze. They enjoyed an ouzo and meze.
Everyone knows "ouzo", of course, but am I wrong in thinking that the lesser known "meze" should be italicised?

I'd argue that they're both well and truly part of the vernacular in which case you leave them as is. Ouzo me meze, on the other hand, would need to be italicized.

 

[nickel]

I'd argue that they're both well and truly part of the vernacular in which case you leave them as is. Ouzo me meze, on the other hand, would need to be italicized.

I totally agree. Ouzo, meze, tzatziki, taramasalata (are there any other six-syllable words with six occurrences of the same vowel and no other vowel?) and the dozens of other names of foods will not be italicised, not just because they've become part of the vernacular but also because the context they appear in will usually be lax with the italicisation of foreign words. In the case of ouzo me meze, italicisation also helps keep the words together (which renders the hyphens unnecessary).

 

[pontios]

Thanks, doctor, cougr, and nickel

I'm salivating at the moment.

Nickel, your observations of taramasalata reminded me of the inner Sydney suburb of Woolloomooloo (with 4 occurrences of "oo" in its 4 syllables).

 

[Earion]

Are you sure it's taramasalata? I always thought it's ταραμοσαλάτα.

 

[bernardina]

Are you sure it's taramasalata? I always thought it's ταραμοσαλάτα.

Yep!;)

 

[nickel]

Γράφει στη Wikipedia:

The spelling taramosalata is sometimes used, based on the Greek, but the -a- spelling is the only one given in most dictionaries.
Συναφής υποσημείωση:
-a- is the only spelling given in The Macquarie Dictionary (1995) for Australian English and in Chambers Dictionary (1994), Collins English Dictionary 6th Edition (2003), Concise Oxford Dictionary 9th Edition (1995), and The Times English Dictionary (2000), all of which represent British English but indicate alternate American spellings and indicate nothing here. -o- is also given, but second so that -a- is preferred, by Longman Dictionary of the English Language (1988) (British publisher). The word was not given at all a few decades ago such as in [Merriam-]Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary (1977) or their three-volume 3rd International (1971) and is now given with -a- in The American Heritage Dictionary, see note above.

Στο OED, που είναι παλιότερο, ξεκινά με taramosalata και βάζει δεύτερη την taramasalata. Όμως, εκεί που στα ελληνικά σεβαστήκαμε το συνδετικό -ο-, ο αγγλόφωνος δεν έχει πρόβλημα να ξεκινήσει με τον τούρκικο tarama. Βέβαια, τα δεδομένα δείχνουν ότι ο ένας στους τέσσερις στη Βρετανία γράφει taramosalata. Από την άλλη, ίσως τα έξι -a- ασκούν την ίδια έλξη που άσκησαν και σε μένα. Ένα τέτοιο ρεκόρ δεν το θυσιάζεις εύκολα. Άλλωστε, οι Έλληνες ταβερνιάρηδες καταλαβαίνουν αμέσως όταν τους ζητούν ταραμασαλάτα.

 

[Earion]

Απρόσμενο. Να τη δεχτώ την taramasalata και να τη γευτώ (ίσως κάποτε). Μπορεί και να μη διαφέρει από την ταραμοσαλάτα.

Αλλά η γλωσσική σύνθεση πώς έγινε; Εννοώ το εξής: ο ισχυρισμός ότι οι αγγλόφωνοι δεν δανείστηκαν τη λέξη έτοιμη, αλλά έκαναν τη σύνθεση μόνοι τους (tarama + salata), χωρίς να χρειάζονται συνδετικό -ο-, προϋποθέτει ότι μπορούν να αναγνωρίσουν τις λέξεις tarama και salata. Από πού κι ως πού;

 

[nickel]

Όχι, δεν εννοώ ότι έφτιαξαν δική τους σύνθεση. Από εμάς την πήραν τη λέξη. Αλλά, όπως φαίνεται από τα παραδείγματα του OED, ο ξένος που δεν γνωρίζει καλά τα ελληνικά, κάνει την ανάλυση σε δύο λέξεις αδιαφορώντας για το συνδετικό -ο-. Από την άλλη, ο Ρόμπερτ Λίντελ, που γνωρίζει καλά τα ελληνικά, αποτυπώνει σωστά την ελληνική λέξη. Και, εδώ που είμαστε, να επισημάνω ότι για πολλά χρόνια γραφόταν με πλάγια.


   1910 Z. D. Ferriman Home Life in Hellas iv. 181 Red caviar‥is pounded with garlic and lemon juice into what is called tarama salata.    1958 R. Liddell Morea ii. iii. 70 A vinegary taramosalata, a preparation of salted fish eggs and oil, which is always Lenten food in Greece.    1964 Spectator 8 May 645/1 A Greek fish pâté, taramasalata. 1964 Spectator 8 May 645/1 A Greek fish pâté, taramasalata.    1972 Harper's & Queen Apr. 92/1, I quite often add tarama to go with the avocado.    1978 Chicago June 233/1 Dinnertime favorites include saganaki,‥taramosalata, red caviar, etc.  

 

[pontios]

I know I started with parentheses, but seeing the discussion has broadened (as all good discussions do), how should this be treated in English?

Centro Sao Paolo, por favor. (Let's say it's an instruction to a cab driver that you want to be taken to Sao Paolo's central district).

Do we italicise everything?
Do we treat it as one entity?

 

[SBE]

Δεν ξέρω τι κάνει ο ένας στους τέσσερεις, αλλά στα βρετανικά σουπερμάρκετ, οι τεσσερεις στους τέσσερεις taramasalata πουλάνε. Συνήθως δίπλα στο ζαζίκι/σασίκι (που εμφανώς το πήραμε από τους γιαπωνέζους).