Comma workshop

[nickel]

Comma before ‘before’
You don’t normally need a comma before a time clause. You need it after the time clause if it comes before the main clause. This is the standard rule with most secondary clauses, and it’s a reasonable, practical rule:
The kids wanted to go to the pool after we ate…
After we ate, the kids wanted to go to the pool…

In the first case, the conjunction makes it clear where the clause begins. In the second example, put a comma to show where the secondary clause ends and the main clause begins, or the reader may have the temporary problem of interpreting ‘after we ate the kids’. Or often you wouldn’t know where an adverb belongs.

However, in your case (17/20) the comma is not absolutely superfluous as you have a longish place adverb before the time adverbial. It’s a good pause, it gives the reader the opportunity to see things in their proper perspective.

Leave ‘at’.

In 17b I’d get rid of ‘of course’ altogether. If you keep it, keep the comma with it.

 

[pontios]

Thank you, nickel.
Excellently explained.

I can get rid of "of course", which was there just to emphasise that the partisans were (of course) carefully guarding George (who was only 15 years old) and the valuable cargo (comprising detonators and explosives, which was dropped by British planes to lend support to the resistance) throughout - i.e., there was nothing left to chance.

 

[nickel]

Thank you, nickel.

I must be doing something right. :) (Talking about the comma above...)

 

[pontios]

I must be doing something right. :) (Talking about the comma here..."Thank you, nickel".)

Now now nickel! ;)

Query 18/20

Two versions of a short sentence.

They left revived and rested in the morning.

In the morning they left revived and rested.


Can we get away without commas?
Without commas, the first version could be misinterpreted as - They left revived ... and rested in the morning. (even though "revived" and "rested" may be considered concomitant words)
The second can probably get away without commas?

 

[Philip]

...or a third version,

They left in the morning, revived and rested.

Your first version did not cause me any confusion, but the second version is unambiguouser, if I may put it thusly. :)

 

[pontios]

Thanks, Philip. :)

Query 19/20

Are the commas placed correctly?

I'm trying to decide between -

Fred, you will soon be conscripted for your military service, and once that's completed you have an obligation to your dead father to do away with his murderer, Joe Blow.
or
Fred, you will soon be conscripted for your military service and once that's completed, you have an obligation to your dead father to do away with his murderer, Joe Blow.

I feel a pause is needed before "and" (and to make sense of the second clause, I'm treating "once that's completed" as if it's a synonym or a substitute for "then").

I'm sure there are other possibilities here, too.

 

[nickel]

"Once it's completed" is a time clause right in the middle of things, so it should be placed within commas. Another comma before "and" may be too much but is not out of the questions. So:

Fred, you will soon be conscripted for your military service, and, once that's completed, you have an obligation to your dead father to do away with his murderer, Joe Blow.
or
Fred, you will soon be conscripted for your military service and, once that's completed, you have an obligation to your dead father to do away with his murderer, Joe Blow.

As the time clause is short and does not cause confusion, there'll be many that won't need the commas there, so you may have two more options:

Fred, you will soon be conscripted for your military service, and once that's completed you have an obligation to your dead father to do away with his murderer, Joe Blow.
or
Fred, you will soon be conscripted for your military service and once that's completed you have an obligation to your dead father to do away with his murderer, Joe Blow. (for the absolute minimalist)

This one, however, is wrong because it is unbalanced:
Fred, you will soon be conscripted for your military service and once that's completed, you have an obligation to your dead father to do away with his murderer, Joe Blow.

My preference:
Fred, you will soon be conscripted for your military service and, once that's completed, you have an obligation to your dead father to do away with his murderer, Joe Blow.

 

[pontios]

Thank you, nickel.
That's what I call a thorough explanation.
I don't know why I came up with my second option; it's unbalanced, as you pointed out, and (besides) I know you can't start the second clause with "you" immediately preceded by a comma (if I was treating "once that's completed" as a short time clause - i.e., as if it's "then").

 

[nickel]

It's time for a quick revision, I think. This looks like a good page:
http://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/607/02/

 

[pontios]

Query 20a.

Here's an ambiguous one -

Achilleas was tipsy for the first time and ended up dancing on the tables while his friends clapped to his every gyration.

Am I right in thinking that if "while" meant "at the same time" there's no comma here, whereas if it meant "whereas" there's a comma. Does the presence or absence of a comma determine the sense here?

Would you use a comma before "while" here?

Last but not least -

Query 20/20

What happens if a sentence ends with "though" or "in the meantime" or "after all" or "besides", or "soon", "then".

Are all these sentences correct ?

I like his car, though.
I'll be heading that way, in the meantime.
You are a champion, after all.
I'll be heading your way, soon. (this probably doesn't need a comma).
I'll be heading your way, then.

What about "here"/"there"?

Refer to the example I gave there.
Refer to the example there.

The example you gave here illustrates the point.

 

[nickel]

Some people tend to put a comma before while when it starts a clause of contrast, but meaning is not determined by the comma. This is not such a well-kept rule. In any case, your while in Query 20a does not need comma.

Some of the adverbs of Query 20 are often separated with commas.
In the meantime: put commas if the phrase is at the beginning or in the middle, e.g.
In the meantime, I’ll be heading that way.
but
I'll be heading that way in the meantime.

As you’ve said, soon does not need a comma – unless it is there as an afterthought. With here and there, the comma makes the adverb a last-minute addition. E.g.

Place your signature here. (The syntax requires an adverb right from the start.)
I want you to sign the document, here and here. (Either with or without a comma. Normally without. The difference is, I hope, clear.)

 

[pontios]

Thank you, nickel.

Your help has been invaluable; I think I've learnt/learned a fair bit.
(and thank you to everyone else who posted in this thread)

Final Query
20z/20

In this sentence, I put a comma before "as" (as I felt a mental breather was needed). Did I do the right thing?

("it" refers to their escape plan)

He was determined to carry it out that very night, as his wife had managed to smuggle in a palm sized pair of side-cutters when she returned with the baby earlier that day.

Whereas, if the sentence was shorter (e.g., as below), there's obviously no comma before "as".
He was determined to carry it out that very night as his wife had managed to smuggle in a pair of side-cutters.

 

[nickel]

I don't think I'd make an issue of that comma. But I think it's time you started the "Hyphen workshop" thread — starting with why there should be a hyphen between "palm" and "sized", while "side-cutters" could easily become "sidecutters".

 

[pontios]

Συγγνώμη για την αναβιώσει αυτού του νήματος, αλλά έχω δυο απορίες (σχετικά με τα δυο παραδείγματα παρακάτω), και έτσι αναγκάστηκα να αθετήσω τον λόγο μου.

Χρειάζεται να μπουν κόμματα πριν από τα υπογραμμισμένα "and";


Ιn the ensuing skirmish, and after some fierce fighting, the Greek guerrillas were forced to surrender and were captured.

The irony was that the captured guerrillas were in fact fighting for the communist cause in the Greek civil war and opposing the Greek army.

(I don't expect commas - just checking to make sure).

Edit .. here's another sentence I just came across.

Yiannos joined the communist guerrillas immediately after the partisans disbanded and so remained in the mountains.

 

[nickel]

I would actually change the first one to:

In the ensuing skirmish and after some fierce fighting the Greek guerrillas were forced to surrender, and were captured.

But I often feel these are matters of personal preference and I don't even consider it necessary to explain my preference.

 

[pontios]

Yes, it reads well.
Here's another version that is probably okay too, which I might settle for?

In the ensuing skirmish and after some fierce fighting, the Greek guerrillas were forced to surrender and were captured.

 

[pidyo]

 

[Marinos]

Α ωραία, το χρησιμοποιώ και γω το κόμμα της Οξφόρδης (αν και στα ελληνικά το λέω, το κόμμα του Πετρόπουλου).

 

[nickel]

Στα ελληνικά έχουμε πει ότι δεν το βάζουμε.

Το παράδειγμα στο βίντεο έχει λάθος. Αν ήθελε να πει ότι η Ελισάβετ και ο Ομπάμα είναι ακροβάτες, η επεξηγηματική φράση θα είχε κόμμα και στα δύο άκρα της: I invited the acrobats, President Obama and the Queen of England, to a party. Και αν κάποιος φοβόταν την παρεξήγηση, θα έβαζε κάτι άλλο αντί για κόμματα, παρένθεση ή μεγάλη παύλα*: I invited the acrobats—President Obama and the Queen of England—to a party.

Εκτενέστερη παρουσίαση εδώ:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_comma#Resolving_ambiguity


* Ελπίζω να καταλάβατε το λάθος. Η πρόταση θα έπρεπε να λέει:
...θα έβαζε κάτι άλλο αντί για κόμματα, π.χ. παρένθεση ή μεγάλη παύλα
... θα έβαζε κάτι άλλο αντί για κόμματα (π.χ. παρένθεση ή μεγάλη παύλα)

 

[daeman]

...
A Handy Guide for Using the Oxford Comma

κόμμα πριν το «κλπ»

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"My heroes are my parents, Superman and Wonder Woman."

Oxford Comma - Vampire Weekend