ο σοφός λαός

[nickel]

Έχουμε ήδη το πολιτικό μας νήμα για τον σοφό λαό, αλλά θα ήθελα και το μεταφραστικό. Θεωρώ ότι δεν θα ήταν σωστό να το αποδώσουμε με τον ίδιο τρόπο (π.χ. [the] wise people), διότι δεν αναφερόμαστε σε κάποιο κομμάτι του λαού, εκείνο που είναι σοφό, ενώ το υπόλοιπο άσε καλύτερα. Η έκφραση εννοεί «το σύνολο του λαού, οι πολίτες, οι κοινοί άνθρωποι» (ένα απ' αυτά, ανάλογα με τη χρήση), «που είναι σοφοί». Να το ξαναγράψω ξανά για να φανεί το κόμμα: «οι πολίτες, που είναι σοφοί» — όχι «οι πολίτες που είναι σοφοί», που θα σήμαινε ότι υπάρχουν και πολίτες που δεν είναι σοφοί. Η έκφραση αφορά τη συλλογικότητα και οφείλεται στη συλλογικότητα: αυτά που κάνει ο σοφός λαός (στο σύνολό του) δεν μπορεί να τα κάνει μια συγκεκριμένη ομάδα. (Άλλο, βέβαια, αν κάποιοι αμφισβητούν τη σοφία και της συλλογικότητας.)

Μετά από την παραπάνω φλυαρία, έχω να κάνω δύο προτάσεις και περιμένω κι άλλες:
people, in their wisdom, / people, in their infinite wisdom,
common folk

 

[SBE]

Και φυσικά όχι wise folk, που αν δεν κάνω λάθος είναι οι κομπογιαννίτες, η μαμή του χωριού κλπ.
Από την άλλη common folk είναι οι κοινοί θνητοί που δεν έχουν φήμη ότι είναι ιδιαίτερα σοφοί (εδώ θα έβαζα το Common People στην εκδοχή του Σάτνερ που έχει πλάκα, αλλά λέω να μην χαλάσω τη συζήτηση).
Μήπως αντί για σοφό λαό θα πρέπει να κοιτάζουμε για λαϊκή σοφία;

 

[nickel]

Μήπως αντί για σοφό λαό θα πρέπει να κοιτάζουμε για λαϊκή σοφία;

Η λαϊκή σοφία είναι folk wisdom;
Και, βέβαια, ο σοφός λαός θέλει δική του απόδοση, να μην τη μοιράζεται με τη σοφία.

 

[cougr]

...............έχω να κάνω δύο προτάσεις και περιμένω κι άλλες

"The wise populace".

Και στο ίδιο πνεύμα με το: "people, in their wisdom,/people, in their infinite wisdom"......"people, in their collective wisdom" .

Έπεται συνέχεια...λίαν συντόμως και προσεχώς.

 

[Cadmian]

Η λαϊκή σοφία είναι folk wisdom;

Και popular wisdom, αν δεν κάνω λάθος.

 

[cougr]

Σε συνέχεια της προηγούμενης ανάρτησης μου σχετικά με την απόδοση του όρου ο σοφός λαός (με την έννοια «το σύνολο του λαού/οι πολίτες/οι κοινοί άνθρωποι, που είναι σοφοί») νομίζω ότι αναλόγως συμφραζομένων θα μπορούσε κάλλιστα να αποδοθεί με τους όρους the wise people ή the wise folk. Όσον αφορά το τελευταίο, ναι μεν χρησιμοποιείται με την έννοια των λαικών θεραπευτών, παραδοσιακών γιατρισσών κτλ. όμως υπάρχουν και περιπτώσεις που λαμβάνει την έννοια του σοφού λαού.

Μερικά παραδείγματα όπου Ο σοφός λαός θα μπορούσε να αποδοθεί με το the wise people ή το the wise folk και αντιστρόφως:

Ο σοφός λαός του Νορθάμπτον αρνήθηκε να δεχθεί την άποψη του Κοινοβουλίου..
Ας είναι το 2012, όπου ο σοφός λαός της Ελλάδος θα συνεχίσει τις σωστές κινήσεις του……..
Ας δούμε λοιπόν τον τρόπο με τον οποίο ο σοφός λαός, δηλαδή εμείς,........
Ο σοφός λαός της Κίνας λοιπόν, έχει βρει τη λύση και για αυτό το πρόβλημα. Αναλαμβάνουν αυτό το δύσκολο και χρονοβόρο έργο οι μανάδες και οι γιαγιάδες (ενίοτε και οι μπαμπάδες/παππούδες).

The wise folk of Northampton refused to accept Parliament's view.
I'm thrilled that the wise folk of NSW have given balance of power in upper house to the likes of Fred Nile and the Shooters Party.
The wise people of Gibraltar will undoubtedly see through such a transparent political pathology.
The wise people of Greece are smart enough to know when they are getting screwed.
I pray that the wise people of America will not vote for him a second time.

 

[nickel]

Δεν έχω καμιά αντίρρηση για περιπτώσεις όπου στα αγγλικά έχουμε the wise people / folk of ή στα ελληνικά ο σοφός λαός του τάδε μέρους, όπου το «κομμάτι του λαού» αποσαφηνίζεται ότι είναι ο λαός του τάδε μέρους, σύμφωνα με την κολακεία του γράφοντος. Υπενθυμίζω ότι ο φόβος μου για το wise people είχε να κάνει με την εντύπωση που δημιουργεί ότι αναφερόμαστε σε ένα κομμάτι του λαού που είναι σοφό, σε αντιδιαστολή με ένα άλλο κομμάτι που δεν είναι σοφό. Η κολακεία αφορά το σύνολο του λαού: το σύνολο του λαού, χωρίς γεωγραφικό ή χρονικό προσδιορισμό, είναι σοφό. Εκεί μου αρέσει πολύ και η πρότασή σου για το (the) people in their collective wisdom. Αυτή ακριβώς είναι η σημασία τού «σοφού λαού»: οι μονάδες μπορεί να μην είναι σοφές, αλλά το σύνολο παράγει συλλογική σοφία. (Καμία σχέση με το «the rise and fall of the [fill in the blank] empire».)

 

[drsiebenmal]

Αναρωτιέμαι αν υπάρχει καν στα αγγλικά (και άλλες γλώσσες) η έννοια του σοφού (και, προσοχή, αλάνθαστου) λαού όπως την καταλαβαίνουμε εμείς. Όταν μιλάμε εμείς για έναν σοφό άνθρωπο, είμαστε ταυτόχρονα πολύ κοντά στη θεία σοφία, στον φιλοσοφικά σοφό (αυτό που αποδίδεται, νομίζω, ως sage), αλλά και στον σοφό γέροντα --του χωριού ή του μοναστηριού.

Στη συνέχεια, μεταφέραμε στον λαό συλλογικά αυτή τη συγκεκριμένη έννοια σοφίας, όπου συνυπάρχουν γνώση, πείρα και σεβασμός προς τον σοφό (ακόμη και στην αστήρικτη μπαρούφα που μπορεί να πετάξει «ο μεγάλος»).

 

[Theseus]

People with commonsense/commonsense no-nonsense folk.

 

[nickel]

Sorry, Theseus, it’s not the same thing. People with commonsense is a subset of the general populace, and it means there are also people without commonsense. In the Greek expression ο λαός is the totality of the citizens. The expression “Όπως λέει ο σοφός λαός” could become “as common wisdom tells us / would have us believe” and the like, but “ο σοφός λαός” is also often used in politics to denote the collective (and wise) will of the people.

 

[pontios]

Sorry, Theseus, it’s not the same thing. People with commonsense is a subset of the general populace, and it means there are also people without commonsense. In the Greek expression ο λαός is the totality of the citizens. The expression “Όπως λέει ο σοφός λαός” could become “as common wisdom tells us / would have us believe” and the like, but “ο σοφός λαός” is also often used in politics to denote the collective (and wise) will of the people.

Good discussion.
I know collective has also been chosen here as an aid to understanding the concept (ο σοφός λαός).
I accept the concept of collective wisdom but can't readily get my head around collective will.
One of the problems with collective will (to me anyway) is it has undertones of a socialist or communist system which implies the concept/philosophy of Collectivism, where Individual decisions are entrusted to a representative body, which has the expertise and authority to decide on behalf of and for the common/collective good of the people and thus (at least in theory anyway) to express their will. So rather than it being the collective will of the people, it's the will of their representative body here that's really being expressed and exercised.


But leaving the "isms" and undertones aside and getting back to the discussion, can we really talk about the collective will of the people and is the collective will ever really going to be expressed anyway ?
If for instance 51% of the people voted for political party A and 49% didn't, was it the collective will of all the people being expressed that brought party A into power or in reality only that of the 51% (only about half of the collective will ) ?

Contrasting it with collective wisdom.. collective wisdom implies (to me) a cooperative effort that draws on the sum total of individual knowledge and wisdom that is continually being added to and has been passed down through the ages.
The sum total of individual knowledge and wisdom can be collective and additive I suppose and so in that sense "collective wisdom" does sound plausible and realistic whereas I think that "collective will" does not i.e. is an ideal or idea at best and should only be used figuratively.
Maybe just the will of the people should suffice ? (i.e. we should drop "collective" here) where will of the people here is tantamount to and should denote will of the majority (of the people) whereas collective wisdom can perhaps be used unreservedly.

Just my thoughts anyway, which should be taken with a grain of salt.

 

[pontios]

nickel wrote ... but “ο σοφός λαός” is also often used in politics to denote the collective (and wise) will of the people.

Just adding ...
Perhaps better still (instead of collective )? .. "ο σοφος λαος" can be used to denote .. the prevailing (and wise) will of the people (who are a collective anyway). So another valid reason perhaps we should stray away from collective will of the people is it can be deemed a tautology ?
i.e. collective will of the people = will of the people.
Collective wisdom of the people might also be deemed a tautology ? (maybe not ?) - if it is then it again might militate against using "collective" in combination with "people" ?
It is something that should perhaps be considered anyway. :inno:

 

[nickel]

It is my impression that “ο σοφός λαός” is often used in connection with electoral results, meaning that, although people have voted all over the political spectrum, they have wisely allocated power and the balance of power. They have, in their collective wisdom, appropriately punished and rewarded their representatives for how they have managed the people's previous vote. I haven't used “collective will” as a suggestion for translation, I just introduced it in my effort to explain. Of course, this form of flattery (“ο σοφός λαός”) is an indirect insult to the individual (“You may have voted unwisely, but the collective vote has done a good job at distributing power”). However, it remains a form of flattery, because people have been known to act unwisely in their collective efforts, and the poor lemmings have been used to describe the suicidal or self-destructive tendencies of collective efforts or omissions.
:)

 

[cougr]

The wise masses

Θυμήθηκα πρόσφατα αυτό το νήμα όταν χρησιμοποίησα τον παραπάνω όρο στη διάρκεια μιας συζήτησης.

Προσθέτω επίσης:

The wisdom of the body politic
The combined wisdom of the people/community

 

[cougr]

Wisdom of the crowd (more at Wiki)

 

[Theseus]

'The collective (& wise will) of the people' sounds cacophonous in English, apart from the awkward alliteration of 'wise will'. We often talk about 'the voice of the people' or say, after an election or referendum, 'the people has spoken'. This implies that the people in general has made a wise decision. There is a Latin phrase, much used in political contexts until recently. Vox populi, vox Dei -- 'the voice of the people is the voice of God'. Its earliest use in English political history dates at least as early as 1327 when the Archbishop of Canterbury Walter Reynolds brought charges against King Edward II in a sermon "Vox populi, vox Dei". From Reynolds onwards English political use of the phrase was favourable. Archbishop Reynolds took as his justifying text the phrase's original usage by Alcuin (739) who in a letter advised the emperor Charlemagne to resist such a dangerous democratic idea, but one of which Charlemagne approved. 'Popular wisdom' or 'the people in their wisdom' does not quite have the linguistic weight of 'the voice of the people'. Here is Alcuin's original Latin, with the translation beneath:-
'Nec audiendi qui solent dicere, vox populi, vox Dei, quum tumultuositas vulgi semper insaniae proxima sit.
'And those people should not be listened to who keep saying the voice of the people is the voice of God, since the riotousness of the mob is always the nearest thing to insanity.'

 

[Theseus]

In the above examples I would say 'the people of Northampton wisely...' 'I'm thrilled that the people of NSW have wisely given...'the people of Gibraltar will undoubtedly....'(omit σοφός altogether). 'The wise people' would be read as meaning 'but not the foolish'. The same applies to 'the people of Greece'.' And 'I pray that the people of America will be wise enough not to vote for him a second time'. 'The wise people' doesn't read well or sound natural in English.

 

[pontios]

In the above examples I would say 'the people of Northampton wisely...' 'I'm thrilled that the people of NSW have wisely given...'the people of Gibraltar will undoubtedly....'(omit σοφός altogether). 'The wise people' would be read as meaning 'but not the foolish'. The same applies to 'the people of Greece'.' And 'I pray that the people of America will be wise enough not to vote for him a second time'. 'The wise people' doesn't read well or sound natural in English.

Good point, Theseus, thanks. I like the way you've restated it .. it does sound more natural.
"The wise people of X", as you correctly point out (and as nickel pointed out earlier in this thread), is obviously not referring to "the foolish - or the unwise - of X" , so it implies the existence of "the foolish or unwise" (to whom we are not referring). There's this unavoidable duality happening in English (when we refer to "wise people of").

Whereas, if we stated it as "wise nation of X" .. it is clear that we are referring to the nation of X being wise (as a whole). Which is fine.

So, «σοφός λαός» is probably best translated as "wise nation"? (methinks/it seems to me?).

(and re: "wisdom of the crowd" article, thanks, cougr .. it's an interesting read)

 

[pontios]

I just wanted to add ... "wise nation of X" still does not sound natural in English - and the way Theseus stated it, using "people" (the people of X made a wise choice/chose wisely), does.