Omitting genitives after nouns

[Theseus]

In what circumstances can we omit the από after φλυτζάνι in the phrase ένα φλυτζάνι τσάι/ένα φλιτζάνι καφέ? Can we say ένα φλυτζάνι από τσάι or is it not idiomatic Greek? What case is the τσάι/καφέ in? The accusative or genitive?
I cannot find any reference to such a common usage in either of my two Modern Greek grammars.
Also Alexandra Fiada in one of her books says, in the context of γαμώ idioms, that she heard the most outrageous of examples in the phrase said by an old sailor: 'γαμώ ένα βαρέλι [απ’?]αγίους[?] με τον Χριστό σαν ταπάκι [lid]'. the translation into Greek is mine, hence the probable inaccuracy: in any case, what case would άγιος be the accusative or genitive plural. And how would such an expletive be properly expressed in idiomatic Greek?
Ελπίζω ότι δεν είναι καθόλου προσβλητικό αυτό το δεύτερο της ερώτησης μου μέρος.

 

[nickel]

either of my two Modern Greek grammars.

BTW, which ones have you got?

 

[SBE]

Τheseus, the definitive article is omitted when the noun has a partitive meaning.

 

[drsiebenmal]

The phrase should be probably... με τον Χριστό καπάκι, which would mean something like a barrel full of saints and Christ over them, (like a crown a something).

It's all in accusative and, with ένα φλιτζάνι από τσάι, every Greek would understand a cup made of tea.

 

[Theseus]

BTW, which ones have you got?

/The Manolis A. Triandaphyllidis Concise Modern Greek Grammar and the Routledge Greek by Holton, Mackridge and Irene Phillipaki-Warburton/

 

[Theseus]

How would one say then, a 'barrel of saints'--ένα βαρέλι αγίων;

 

[daeman]

Hi Theseus,

There's another possibility for the particular expletive: Γαμώ ένα βαρέλι αγίους και τον Χριστό καπάκι, meaning a barrel full of saints and then Christ. Καπάκι is idiomatically used sometimes to signify a supplement to a meal or a series of drinks (similar to "nightcap"), therefore here it may be used as an intensifier of the first part.

As for the phrase ένα φλιτζάνι από τσάι, in addition to the prevalent meaning that DrSiebenmal points out, it could also be understood as a cup which was used for tea right before the utterance, but now is empty or half empty (in any case to be washed before used again).

 

[daeman]

How would one say then, a 'barrel of saints'--ένα βαρέλι αγίων;

Ένα βαρέλι (με) αγίους, because ένα βαρέλι αγίων would mean that the barrel belonged to saints
(or was made out of saints :woot:).


Edit: to move away from the saintly barrel examples, because some people might be annoyed:

a cup of tea: ένα φλιτζάνι τσάι (a cupful of tea)
a teacup: ένα φλιτζάνι του τσαγιού
a cup for tea: ένα φλιτζάνι για τσάι (it might be a coffee mug, but now we want to use it for tea)

 

[drsiebenmal]

Since I have the Greek text of Holton, Mackridge and Irene Phillipaki-Warburton, I couldn't know if the numbering or even the contents are the same with the English text. In my Greek copy, anyway, there is much about this subject in Μέρος Γ: Σύνταξη, 2. Το ουσιαστικό και η ονοματική φράση, 2.12 Δομές παράθεσης, with references to similar usage.

And daeman is right: Καπάκι can also mean right afterwards.

 

[nickel]

Right, pages 346-348 of the Comprehensive.

 

[Philip]

Theseu, it's not so much a question of omitting the από - from the Greek point of view this is a regular pattern (cf also ένα κιλό πατάτες, ένα μάτσο χάλια etc); you could think of the English as being insertion of of in such cases.:)