take the ropes

Πώς θα μεταφράζατε αυτό τον ιδιωματισμό;

But a greater realization is that of your own fragility; that you could be reduced as I was from leading over 100 pilots and 1,000 men to "taking the ropes" in a matter of minutes.

και (από το ίδιο)

The key word for all of us at fIrst was fragility. Each of us, before we were ever in shouting distance of another American, was made to "take the ropes." That was a real shock to our systems-and as with all shocks, its impact on our inner selves was a lot more impressive and lasting and important than to our limbs and torsos.

Βρήκα κι αυτή την πληροφορία για την προέλευση του ιδιωματισμού, αλλά προσωπικά δεν με βοηθάει πολύ:

It can be said that the sea is the basic resource which the English depends on, so that the words related to the living conditions of the sailors at sea, the adventures of fighting against the storm and the things they experience are often absorbed into the language. Due to the expressivity, lifelikeness and humor, these words are gradually accepted by common people and widely used in daily life.For example, “to take the ropes”, which originally indicates the sailor who could expertly control the ropes of the sail, now means “thoroughly understand.” (εδώ)

Κάτι σαν "ξεκινάω από το μηδέν;" "βρίσκομαι στον πάτο του πηγαδιού"; :s

...
Μήπως το "take the ropes" στο κείμενο αυτό εννοεί κυριολεκτικά σκοινιά;
Γιατί αναζητώντας το "rope" στο ίδιο κείμενο, ψυλλιάζομαι ότι αναφέρεται κάποιου είδους βασανιστήριο με σκοινιά:

Each of us, before we were ever in shouting distance of another American, was made to "take the ropes."

As a result of that friendly gesture from a fellow American, Nels Tanner went into three successive days of rope torture, followed by 123 days in leg stocks -all while isolated, of course.

They isolated those I trusted most: those with a long record of solitary and rope-mark pedigrees.

He mailed out questionnaires to us (who had also taken the ropes at least 10 times), and others with records of extreme prison abuse.

From my viewpoint, you can get used to repeated rope torture -there are some tricks for minimizing your losses in that game.

Why did those men in "cold soak" after their fIrst rope trip eat their hearts out and feel so unworthy when the fIrst American contacted them?

I had been through those ropes more than a dozen times, and I knew I could contain material -so long as they didn't know I knew it.

---

Often suffering from illness and infections, the prisoners underwent unrelenting beatings, solitary confinement and a particularly savage form of torture known as the Vietnamese rope trick.

The method involved binding a prisoner’s hands behind his back with manacles, then using a rope to rotate them upward until his shoulders and elbows popped out of their sockets.

“The rope trick hurts like crazy and will get you to say anything,” said Robert Wideman, a Navy pilot who was captured after his jet went down in May 1967.

https://www.stripes.com/news/specia...ary-changes-to-infamous-hanoi-hilton-1.593300

Οντως, THE ROPES υπήρξαν ένα από τα βασανιστήρια που διενεργούσαν οι Βιετναμέζοι κατά των Αμερικανών αιχμαλώτων!

Rope trick
Often suffering from illness and infections, the prisoners underwent unrelenting beatings, solitary confinement and a particularly savage form of torture known as the Vietnamese rope trick.The method involved binding a prisoner’s hands behind his back with manacles, then using a rope to rotate them upward until his shoulders and elbows popped out of their sockets. “The rope trick hurts like crazy and will get you to say anything,” said Robert Wideman, a Navy pilot who was captured after his jet went down in May 1967.
https://www.stripes.com/news/specia...ary-changes-to-infamous-hanoi-hilton-1.593300

The most severe torture commonly used was the “rope trick”. The victim’s upper extremities were pulled behind him. Tight bonds were placed proximal to the elbows and the elbows were pulled together. The wrists were bound. The wrists were then pulled up and forward. This extended and adducted the shoulders far beyond the physiologic range of motion. The elbows were hyperextended. Wrists were lacerated and blood supply was compromised for prolonged periods. The ulnar nerve was especially vulnerable. The pain caused by this abuse was severe. Residual paralysis and sensory loss with paresthesias lasted for prolonged periods and in some is present today.
https://www.pownetwork.org/pownet.secure.2/POSTER.pdf


Το Σχοινί
Το πιο διαδεδομένο βασανιστήριο ήταν το «Σχοινί». Έφερναν τα χέρια του θύματος πίσω, τα έδεναν υπερβολικά σφιχτά και τα σήκωναν προς τα πάνω μέχρι να εξαρθρωθούν οι ώμοι. Το σχοινί διέκοπτε τη ροή του αίματος στα άκρα και έσκιζε το δέρμα. Οι πληγές συνήθως μολύνονταν και μπορεί να προκαλούσαν τον θάνατο. Πολλές φορές, τους σήκωναν στον αέρα από τους αγκώνες και τους άφηναν να κρέμονται για ώρες....
http://www.mixanitouxronou.gr/ta-frikta-vasanistiria-ton-vietnamezon-stous-amerikanous-echmalotous/

Εδώ αναφορά στην εμπειρία του Stockdale:

https://books.google.gr/books?id=Qx...KEwi3xMDojNLqAhXKxcQBHTX8BSs4ChDoATAGegQICBAC

Ναι, έχετε δίκιο, και στο δικό μου κείμενο αργότερα αναφέρεται καθαρά στο βασανιστήριο του σκοινιού. Αλλά ειδικά την πρώτη φορά, στο πρώτο απόσπασμα που δίνω εδώ, αυτό το βασανιστήριο ο Στόκντεϊλ δεν το έχει ζήσει ακόμα. Λέτε όμως ότι σε όλες τις περιπτώσεις αναφέρεται σε αυτό; Και ότι κατά σύμπτωση υπάρχει και ίδιος ιδιωματισμός; Ναι, μπορεί. Νομίζω ότι με βοηθήσατε να "ξεκολλήσω". Ευχαριστώ! :)

antongoun said:

...
Βρήκα κι αυτή την πληροφορία για την προέλευση του ιδιωματισμού, αλλά προσωπικά δεν με βοηθάει πολύ:

It can be said that the sea is the basic resource which the English depends on, so that the words related to the living conditions of the sailors at sea, the adventures of fighting against the storm and the things they experience are often absorbed into the language. Due to the expressivity, lifelikeness and humor, these words are gradually accepted by common people and widely used in daily life.For example, “to take the ropes”, which originally indicates the sailor who could expertly control the ropes of the sail, now means “thoroughly understand.” (εδώ)

Click to expand...

Νομίζω πως το κείμενο αυτό είναι αγγλική μετάφραση διατριβής (ή δημοσίευσης) γραμμένης από κινεζόφωνο, οπότε υποψιάζομαι ότι κάποια άλλη φράση με το ropes χάθηκε στη μετάφραση, ίσως το know / learn the ropes κρίνοντας από τη σημασία που του δίνει (το thoroughly understand), που έχει μάλιστα ναυτική προέλευση.

... ίσως το "take" = "undergo"/"suffer"/"endure/bear."? (maybe even "face"?)
(to) take the ropes = (to) suffer/(to) undergo/(to) endure/(to) bear/(to) face (the punsishment/torture of) "the ropes."?

... so, someone who has taken the ropes = αυτός που υπέστη το βασανιστήριο "του σχοινιού." (ή και την ιδέα) ;

Εδώ ο βασινισθείς διευκρινίζει τη φράση "taking the ropes":

And, more than even that, you’re going to face fragilities you never before let yourself believe you could have––like after mere minutes, in a flurry of action while being bound with tourniquet-tight ropes, with care, by a professional, hands behind, jackknifed forward and down toward your ankles held secure in lugs attached to an iron bar, that, with the onrush of anxiety, knowing your upper bod y ’s circulation has been stopped and feeling the ever growing induced pain and the ever-closing-in of claustrophobia, you can be made to blurt out answers, sometimes correct answers, to questions about anything they know you know. (Hereafter, I’ll just call that situation “taking the ropes.”)
https://battleinvestmentgroup.com/courage-under-fire-2/