Page 1 of 9 1 2 3 4 5 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 84

Thread: Comma workshop

  1. #1
    Senior Member pontios's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    1,488
    Gender
    Male

    Comma workshop

    Good morning from cold, sunny Melbourne.

    I hope I'm doing the right thing here; I just thought it would be best to keep all my queries, on commas, in the one thread (I don't want to rework the sentences I'll be querying - I just want to use them as working examples, even if they're flawed).

    Here's query 1.

    After a bumpy two hour trip, they passed through Oradea and somewhere east of the city they entered a large open space containing three rectangular, double-storey prison buildings.
    I've deliberately left out 2 commas, above (incidentally, should there be a comma before above? - that could be my second query).

    I'm not sure where to place the 2 commas. Which of the following is correct?
    .. ,and somewhere east of the city, .. or ... and, somewhere east of the city, (the latter makes more sense - but I feel it's incorrect).

    Something tells me it's the former, and if so, (I wasn't even sure about these 2 commas now) it would mean the "and" is effectively taken away, i.e., the sentence effectively becomes: (should there be commas around "effectively"? - that could be my third query!) After a bumpy two hour trip, they passed through Oradea, they entered a large open space...

  2. #2
    Senior Member daeman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    anywhere I lay my head
    Posts
    22,925
    Gender
    Male
    Quote Originally Posted by pontios View Post
    Good morning from cold, sunny Melbourne.
    I just thought it would be best to keep all my queries, on commas, in the one thread (I don't want to rework the sentences I'll be querying - I just want to use them as working examples).

    Here's query 1.

    After a bumpy two hour trip, they passed through Oradea and somewhere east of the city they entered a large open space containing three rectangular, double-storey prison buildings.
    ...
    Good evening from hot starry Greece. I agree it would be best to keep all your queries on commas in this thread.
    To the point:

    After a bumpy two hour trip, they passed through Oradea and somewhere east of the city they entered a large open space containing three rectangular, double-storey prison buildings.
    fast, almost non stop utterance

    After a bumpy two hour trip, they passed through Oradea and, somewhere east of the city, they entered a large open space containing three rectangular, double-storey prison buildings.

    parenthetically injecting "somewhere east of the city" for rhythm and balance

    After a bumpy two hour trip, they passed through Oradea, and somewhere east of the city they entered a large open space containing three rectangular, double-storey prison buildings.
    a pause after "Oradea" separates the two sentences

    After a bumpy two hour trip, they passed through Oradea, and somewhere east of the city, they entered a large open space containing three rectangular, double-storey prison buildings.

    a pause ends the locative part of the second sentence, like the temporal in the first one

    After a bumpy two hour trip, they passed through Oradea, and, somewhere east of the city, they entered a large open space, containing three rectangular, double-storey prison buildings.
    a bumpy ride, but grammatically sound

    Take your pick.

    Quote Originally Posted by pontios View Post
    i.e., the sentence effectively becomes: (should there be commas around "effectively"? - that could be my third query!)
    No; the sentence, effectively, becomes: a hiccup.

    Quote Originally Posted by pontios View Post
    After a bumpy two hour trip, they passed through Oradea, they entered a large open space.
    This looks disjointed.
    Θεωρητικά, θεωρία και πράξη είναι το ίδιο πράγμα. Στην πράξη, όμως, διαφέρουν.
    When this you see, remember me and bear me in your mind, let all the world say what they may, speak of me as you find.

  3. #3
    Senior Member pontios's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    1,488
    Gender
    Male
    Thanks, Daeman!

    So the rule with commas is - there isn't one (just joking).
    Are all your versions acceptable and which one would you choose?

    I'll come back to this thread later.

    Thank you for your help.

  4. #4
    Senior Member daeman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    anywhere I lay my head
    Posts
    22,925
    Gender
    Male
    ...
    I think #2 for fast (nudging the readers) or #5 for slow reading (letting them breathe), depending on the overall sequence and the desired speed for the specific scene, cinematically. Αλλά της νύχτας τα καμώματα, καμιά φορά τα βλέπει η μέρα και γελά.
    Θεωρητικά, θεωρία και πράξη είναι το ίδιο πράγμα. Στην πράξη, όμως, διαφέρουν.
    When this you see, remember me and bear me in your mind, let all the world say what they may, speak of me as you find.

  5. #5
    Senior Member pontios's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    1,488
    Gender
    Male
    Thank you, daeman.
    You've covered all bases with your answer.
    #2 seems to fit the bill as far as nudging the reader along, and it's the one I'll end up using.

    Here's an interesting Oscar Wilde quote which you may have come across: (no comma before which, right?)
    “I was working on the proof of one of my poems all the morning, and took out a comma. In the afternoon I put it back again.”
    The other interesting thing is; should there have been a comma before "and" in his above quote? Also, what about one after "afternoon"?


    What about this sentence .. let's call it query 2.

    Her face was wet and frozen which also suggested to him that she had stopped breathing. (previously, he had put his ear up close to her mouth and couldn't detect her breath)
    Should there be a comma before "which"? (I'm tempted to leave it out).

    And, my last query for the day - query 3.

    He stopped a little further on to listen for the baby's breath but couldn't detect it once more.
    Should there be commas around "to listen for the baby's breath" ?

  6. #6
    Administrator nickel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    38.113583, 23.862870
    Posts
    47,431
    Gender
    Male
    [1]
    Η προσωπική μου προτίμηση:

    After a bumpy two-hour trip they passed through Oradea and, somewhere east of the city, entered a large open space containing three rectangular, double-storey prison buildings.

    two-hour trip, αφού και double-storey buildings
    Έφαγα και το δεύτερο they στο πλαίσιο του μινιμαλισμού.

    Το effectively θέλει κόμματα αν είναι sentence adverb:

    effectively
    in such a manner as to achieve a desired result: make sure that resources are used effectively
    actually but not officially or explicitly: they were effectively controlled by the people they were supposed to be investigating
    [sentence adverb]:effectively, this means that companies will be able to avoid regulations


    [2]
    Her face was wet and frozen, which also suggested to him that she had stopped breathing.
    Το κόμμα είναι απαραίτητο όταν το which αναφέρεται σε όλη την πρόταση που προηγείται και μεταφράζεται «πράγμα το οποίο», «κάτι το οποίο».

    [3]
    Όχι, δεν βάζουμε κόμματα για να χωρίσουμε το απαρέμφατο του σκοπού εδώ.
    Μένω ΕυρώπηΣύγκρουση ιδεών, όχι βία και μισαλλοδοξία: δεν οδηγούν πουθενά. (Λ. Κύρκος)Αριστεία, ρε!
    ΕΝΑ ΝΗΜΑ ΤΗΝ ΗΜΕΡΑ ΤΗΝ ΑΝΙΑ ΚΑΝΕΙ ΠΕΡΑ. Staying hungry, staying foolish. Το διαδίκτυο βλάπτει όταν δεν σκέφτεσαι.

  7. #7
    Senior Member pontios's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    1,488
    Gender
    Male
    Thank you, nickel.
    Much appreciated!

    1) Συμφωνώ με την προσωπική σου προτίμηση. I'm all for minimalism (is there a smaller synonym for "minimalism"?).

    2) και 3) Ωραία τα εξήγησες.

    Here's one with the kitchen sink thrown in for good measure - the last one for the week, I promise.

    Query 4

    She then took all the measurements which she wrote into her notebook and the fabric material which Valeria had supplied back to her workshop and started to cut and sew all the pieces together.

    (Something just occurred to me - should it be "wrote" or "had writtten"? - probably "had written", now that I think about it).

  8. #8
    Administrator nickel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    38.113583, 23.862870
    Posts
    47,431
    Gender
    Male
    Όπως λες, had written αφού είχε ήδη γράψει τα μέτρα στο καρνέ της.

    She then took all the measurements (which) she had written in her notebook and the fabric material (which) Valeria had supplied back to her workshop and started to cut and sew all the pieces together.

    Κανένα κόμμα δεν μπορείς να βάλεις, ούτε για διευκόλυνση.
    Μένω ΕυρώπηΣύγκρουση ιδεών, όχι βία και μισαλλοδοξία: δεν οδηγούν πουθενά. (Λ. Κύρκος)Αριστεία, ρε!
    ΕΝΑ ΝΗΜΑ ΤΗΝ ΗΜΕΡΑ ΤΗΝ ΑΝΙΑ ΚΑΝΕΙ ΠΕΡΑ. Staying hungry, staying foolish. Το διαδίκτυο βλάπτει όταν δεν σκέφτεσαι.

  9. #9
    Senior Member pontios's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    1,488
    Gender
    Male
    Thanks, nickel.

    Are you saying there's no commas whatsoever, if we leave out "which"?


    I would have thought the following would also be possible -

    She then took all the measurements, she had written in her notebook, and the fabric material, Valeria had supplied, back to her workshop and started to cut and sew all the pieces together.

    Would the above be wrong?

  10. #10
    Administrator nickel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    38.113583, 23.862870
    Posts
    47,431
    Gender
    Male
    Yes, totally wrong.

    "Which" is optional because these are defining relatives and "which" is the object in both relatives.
    You will never see defining relatives with commas around them as in your #9.

    I'm off now, but please have a good look at this:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relativ...on-restrictive

    More tomorrow.
    Μένω ΕυρώπηΣύγκρουση ιδεών, όχι βία και μισαλλοδοξία: δεν οδηγούν πουθενά. (Λ. Κύρκος)Αριστεία, ρε!
    ΕΝΑ ΝΗΜΑ ΤΗΝ ΗΜΕΡΑ ΤΗΝ ΑΝΙΑ ΚΑΝΕΙ ΠΕΡΑ. Staying hungry, staying foolish. Το διαδίκτυο βλάπτει όταν δεν σκέφτεσαι.

Page 1 of 9 1 2 3 4 5 ... LastLast

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •