# Two questions about the Pentozali



## Theseus (Jun 27, 2017)

In this video clip:-






What is the shout of encouragement in Greek that the dancers give to one another.

And what does the last old man at approximately 4 minutes 46 seconds say in Greek. Is it possible to have a transcript of his brief sentences? I can understand quite a lot of what the other speakers say but the speech of the old men I find harder to decipher because they clearly speak in dialect & to me less clearly.


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## SBE (Jun 27, 2017)

Daeman will probably give a transcript, but what I understood was the "He sacrificed himself, they skinned him alive and he did not talk, they removed (his skin) in strips and he did not say a word". I think the problem is not the dialect but old age, which means less diction. 
Also the man just before talks about Κασσάνδρες but he has a slight lisp and I hear Καθάδρες.


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## Theseus (Jun 27, 2017)

Thanks, SBE. What are Κασσάνδρες in this context? Prophets of doom?


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## daeman (Jun 27, 2017)

Theseus said:


> What is the shout of encouragement in Greek that the dancers give to one another.



Όπα!

*όπα *[ópa] _επιφ. _: 1. δηλώνει ξάφνιασμα, θαυμασμό, επιδοκιμασία, ειρωνεία κτλ.: ~ για κοίτα ποιος ήρθε! 2. συνοδεύει κινήσεις χορευτή ελληνικής (λαϊκής) μουσικής. 

Frequently enhanced in Crete as "Όπα λέω!"



Theseus said:


> And what does the last old man at approximately 4 minutes 46 seconds say in Greek. Is it possible to have a transcript of his brief sentences? I can understand quite a lot of what the other speakers say but the speech of the old men I find harder to decipher because they clearly speak in dialect & to me less clearly.



4:27: «Τον επαίξανε οι Ρώσοι, τον επαίξανε αυτόν... απού τάχα μου θα του φέρουνε καράβια και... αυτό, ύστερα δεν εξανασιμώσανε αυτοί.» 

4:44: «Αυτός εθυσιάστηκε, σκέψου απού τον εγδάρανε και δεν εμίλησε, ζωντανό τον εγδάρανε, του βγάλανε τσι λουρίδες και δεν εμίλησε καθόλου... να πει "Ώφου". Και είχανε τον αδερφό ντου πέρα πέρα και τον εκοίταζε. Κι εκειά την πάτησε ο αδερφός του, ετρελάθηκε απ' το... αυτό. Αυτός όμως δεν εμίλησε καθόλου, να πει "Άχι" μια φορά.»


επαίξανε = εμπαίξανε = ξεγέλασαν, παραπλάνησαν με ψεύτικες υποσχέσεις


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## daeman (Jun 27, 2017)

Theseus said:


> ... What are Κασσάνδρες in this context? Prophets of doom?



Yes: Κασσάνδρα = Cassandra, prophet of doom, doomsayer


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## Theseus (Jun 27, 2017)

Thanks so much for your effort on my behalf. As Palαύρα said the Pentozali [πατιές she called it]is one of the most beautiful of all dances. I wanted to hear what the Cretans themselves, like you, thought about it & by accident I stumbled on this YouTube video clip. I'd like to translate all of it & I'm going over it repeatedly but the latter part seemed more difficult than the rest. 
I do you the honour of rendering my translation for you to correct:-

4:27: «Τον επαίξανε οι Ρώσοι, τον επαίξανε αυτόν... απού τάχα μου θα του φέρουνε καράβια και... αυτό, ύστερα δεν εξανασιμώσανε αυτοί.» 

The Russians deceived him, they deceived him..who allegedly they would bring ships to..& this sort of thing (?=filler), afterwards, they didn't come near the place again.

4:44: «Αυτός εθυσιάστηκε, σκέψου απού τον εγδάρανε και δεν εμίλησε, ζωντανό τον εγδάρανε, του βγάλανε τσι λουρίδες και δεν εμίλησε καθόλου... να πει "Ώφου". Και είχανε τον αδερφό ντου πέρα πέρα και τον εκοίταζε. Κι εκειά την πάτησε ο αδερφός του, ετρελάθηκε απ' το... αυτό. Αυτός όμως δεν εμίλησε καθόλου, να πει "Άχι" μια φορά.»

He was sacrificed, think of him they flayed him & he didn't say a word, they flayed him alive, they took strips of skin from him & he didn't say a word at all, just saying 'phew'. They had his brother in the near distance, he was driven mad by the...it. But he didn't say a word, saying: Aaaah! just once.


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## daeman (Jun 27, 2017)

Theseus said:


> ...
> The Russians deceived him, they deceived him...whom allegedly they would bring him ships...& that(?=filler), afterwards, they didn't come near again.
> 
> ... he didn't say a word at all, just saying 'phew'. ... But he didn't say a word, saying: Aaaah! just once.



1. Yes, that's a filler.

2. he didn't say a word at all, not even "Phew" ... But he didn't say a word, not even once "Aaaah".


The tricky subjunctive, here retaining the negative from the previous part of the sentence.


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## Theseus (Jun 27, 2017)

So να here means 'not even'. Is this a Cretan idiom with δεν?


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## daeman (Jun 27, 2017)

...
I don't think so; it just seems so natural to me. I can't readily think of an example or similar construct in common Greek, but I think that's only because I'm overworked lately and I feel drained right now. Later, perhaps, if somebody else doesn't get it first.


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## Marinos (Jun 27, 2017)

I (not a Cretan) would say: ούτε να πει ώφου.


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## Theseus (Jun 27, 2017)

Thank you so much, 'Man. I know that you are often overworked, become stressed & are often depressed. But you are an invaluable colleague & an immense fount of knowledge. My first love for things Greek happened in Crete. You are a living link to all that is Cretan & more. I personally owe so much to you. :)


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## Theseus (Jun 27, 2017)

Thanks, for your help Marinos. I found this usage strange to me but I am a novice in this department.


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## SBE (Jun 27, 2017)

Theseus said:


> So να here means 'not even'. Is this a Cretan idiom with δεν?



No, one word is implied that might make it clearer: δεν μίλησε, _ούτε_ να πει ώφου. He didn't talk _not even_ to say aaaaah. It is standard Greek.

Edit: answered before seeing the rest of the thread!:scared:


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## Theseus (Jun 27, 2017)

Thanks for the usual help, SBE. By the way, in the matter of Κασσάνδρες, how did that fit into the context of the lisping Cretan old man? :)


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## SBE (Jun 28, 2017)

He says 
Δυστυχώς το αποτέλεσμα ήταν αρνητικό, δικαιωθήκαν οι Κασσάνδρες. 
Unfortunately, the result was undesirable. The doomsayers were proven right. 
I have not watched the whole clip, but if I understand well, he is talking about the Russians not turning up and same thing as the older man (the fate of Daskaloyannis).


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## Theseus (Jun 28, 2017)

Thanks, SBE. I'm gradually getting the hang of spoken Greek, but my course is of the standard variety. As you said, the diction of older people is less. Is the filler αυτό, meaning presumably 'and that sort of thing', limited to Crete?


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## SBE (Jun 28, 2017)

You mean in the phrase: 
Κι εκειά την πάτησε ο αδερφός του, ετρελάθηκε απ' το... αυτό

Daeman said it's a filler, I say that the speaker wanted to say something, couldn't perhaps remember the word (which I guess would be απο το θέαμα/ από αυτό που είδε, he lost his mind because of what he saw) and just mumbled something that sounded like αυτό just to conclude the sentence. Not a filler, technically.


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## Palavra (Jun 28, 2017)

Theseus said:


> Thanks so much for your effort on my behalf. As Palαύρα said the Pentozali [πατιές she called it]is one of the most beautiful of all dances.


Πατιές is not a synonym of Pentozali; it just means the dance figures that only men are allowed to perform when dancing, i.e. hit their heel with their hand and then lean on the next man's hand in order to get up in the air and then hit their heel some more.


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## daeman (Jun 28, 2017)

SBE said:


> You mean in the phrase:
> Κι εκειά την πάτησε ο αδερφός του, ετρελάθηκε απ' το... αυτό
> 
> Daeman said it's a filler, I say that the speaker wanted to say something, couldn't perhaps remember the word (which I guess would be απο το θέαμα/ από αυτό που είδε, he lost his mind because of what he saw) and just mumbled something that sounded like αυτό just to conclude the sentence. Not a filler, technically.



Daeman didn't say that the second _αυτό _is a filler. He was only referring to the first one («Τον επαίξανε οι Ρώσοι, τον επαίξανε αυτόν... απού τάχα μου θα του φέρουνε καράβια και... αυτό») which is not a filler either —at least technically, in the linguistic sense— although it's actually used as a sentence filler (in the general sense of the word, filling a gap, or trailing off here) or a placeholder for something that the speaker doesn't want to or cannot say at the time, similarly to _whatnot _in this case, or _και τέτοια_ in Greek. Which is actually a function of the pronoun _αυτό _in colloquial speech, like "_that" _(e.g._ and all that: κι όλα αυτά, this and that: αυτό κι εκείνο_) is used in English. Αυτό, μωρέ, το πωστολένε, εκείνο. This thingy, that stuff; stuffing, and all that jazz. 



Spoiler






daeman said:


> Theseus said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...





We're splitting hairs, of course, and anyway it's all a bit fuzzy. Like the myth ahem legend that pentozalis was invented at that specific time and place.


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## Theseus (Jun 28, 2017)

Sorry about αυτό but my translation shows that it only applied to the first sentence. I know that a filler was probably an inaccurate term but it's a pause for thought word or a word like 'and that' in my native Lancashire speech or as SBE says a word that the speaker was trying to find & was failing to put a word to, like the πωστολένε of 'Man. I didn't quite get the exact meaning of πατιές but when I accessed the link it took me straight to the Pentozali. I was unable to find this word in any dictionary. Myths or legends die hard but there are grains of truth in legend & timeless truth in myths. And so-called history is what is left when events have passed through the sieve of critical thinking.;)


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