# A murder of crows



## bernardina (Apr 7, 2014)

Μεταφράζοντας πρόσφατα ένα βιβλίο, έπεσα σε έναν όρο που --ομολογώ-- δεν είχα συναντήσει άλλη φορά. Τι στην ευχή ήταν αυτό το murder of crows;

Επειδή μού κίνησε την περιέργεια (και γνωρίζοντας πόση ποικιλία υπάρχει στην αγγλική γλώσσα σε ό,τι αφορά κοπάδια πετούμενων*) έκανα μια σύντομη έρευνα στο διαδίκτυο και βρήκα κάποια αποτελέσματα.

Εδώ, για παράδειγμα, μας λέει πως:

-This more poetic term for a flock of crows can be traced back at least to the 15th century, when it was recorded as a murther of crowes. Murther is a variant of Middle English murthre 'murder,' though the th sound had begun to be replaced with a d around 1300 C.E. There are several theories as to how this particular term came about, but all of them have to do with the supposed behavior of crows. For instance, crows are scavengers and therefore often seen feeding on rotting bodies of various sorts. Survivors of wars have described how the battlefields were covered in black as crows (and ravens) came down to eat the dead. Another theory hearkens back to old folklore which told of groups of crows essentially holding court over members of their flock that had committed offenses. If they decide against the "defendant" crow, then the rest of the flock swoops down on it and kills it. There are legends outside of the Germanic culture that relate to crows being judges over people as well, and how their appearance is an omen of death.



Και πιο κάτω:
...I do know, however, that the behaviour of ganging up on one crow (which does not necessarily have to be the weakest) is real. In Swedish, it's called "kråkriksdag", roughly translated as "crow parliament". I've seen it happen, and it is a brutal event. There is some general squaking, but there is no clear target. Suddenly it starts and all of them jump on one crow, picking at it until it is dead, literally tearing it to pieces. They are so focused on this that you have to run straight in among them to scatter them.


Αυτού του γεγονότος έχω κι εγώ σταθεί μάρτυρας πριν από κανα χρόνο περίπου.
Σε πολύ κοντινή απόσταση από το παράθυρο του γραφείου μου, σε διπλανό οικόπεδο με πεύκα, ένα μικρό σμήνος από καρακάξες, που όπως γνωρίζουμε είναι του σογιού, επιτέθηκαν με άγριες κραυγές και ραμφίσματα σε ένα μέλος του κοπαδιού τους. Ομολογώ ότι προσπάθησα να διαλύσω τον καβγά με φωνές και δυνατά χτυπήματα των χεριών μου, αλλά ήταν σαν να μην άκουγαν τίποτα -ενώ άλλες φορές αρκεί να κουνήσεις το κεφάλι σου για να σκορπίσουν.
Όταν κατέβηκα, βρήκα το πουλί νεκρό, γεμάτο πληγές, ειδικά στο κεφάλι. Τότε δεν κατάλαβα το λόγο (ούτε και τώρα τον καταλαβαίνω, απλώς διαπιστώνω ότι είναι συνηθισμένη πρακτική του είδους).

Εν πάση περιπτώσει, η λέξη murder ως συνώνυμο του κοπαδιού ή του σμήνους ομολογώ ότι με ξένισε. 
Είδα κι αλλού την ερμηνεία ότι αυτό οφείλεται στην πτωματοφάγο φύση τους, αλλά για κάποιο λόγο δεν με είχε πείσει εντελώς. Υποψιαζόμουν ότι είναι παραφθορά κάποιας λέξης, αλλά τότε βρέθηκα εδώ και κατάλαβα. Απλώς δεν είχα κάνει τη σύνδεση με άλλες παρόμοιες φράσεις που μου ήταν οικείες, και δείχνουν τον ιδιαίτερο, διαφορετικό τρόπο που λειτουργεί η αγγλική γλώσσα σε πολλές περιπτώσεις. Θέλω να πω, ενώ η φράση "a pride of lions" (ή "a gaggle of geese", όπως λέει επίσης) μου ήταν γνωστή, το a murder of crows μου διέφευγε.
Κι όμως, βασίζεται πάνω στην ίδια λογική:


.........Some of the terms collected on websites, such as “an absence of waiters” or “an attitude of teenagers,” are clearly of recent vintage, coined in tiny fits of wit by the kind of people who drive their friends and families mad with constant puns. For me, a little of this goes a long way, and eventually “a brace of orthodontists” or “a disputation of lawyers” makes me feel like I’m trapped in one of those creepy-cutesy public radio quiz shows.

But it would be mistake to tar all of these terms as simply casual inventions in pursuit of a chuckle. Of course, someone did make them up. The entire English language was “invented” in one way or another. *But the truly interesting collective nouns, such as “murder of crows” or “a cete of badgers,” were coined a very long time ago, mostly in the 15th century, and far from being merely fanciful inventions, these terms were once considered the proper way to describe a group of animals.* Some, such as “a pride of lions” and “a gaggle of geese,” remain in common use today after being rescued from obscurity and revived in the 19th century.


*Να μην παραλείψω να αναφέρω ότι μνεία του όρου υπάρχει και σ' αυτό το νήμα της Λεξιλογίας.


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## nickel (Apr 7, 2014)

Δεν σχολιάζω ακόμα το πανέμορφο αυτό σημείωμα, γιατί δεν ξέρω τι να πρωτοσχολιάσω: μπήκαν πολλά πάνω στο τραπέζι. Αλλά για να μην το ξεχάσω (και σε σχέση με κάποιο από τα κείμενα στα οποία παραπέμπεις): για να επικρατήσει ένας νεολογισμός, είτε πρόκειται για καινούργια λέξη ή για όμορφη φράση, δεν είναι απαραίτητο ή δεν φτάνει να είσαι ένας Σέξπιρ. Εκτός από την ευγνωμοσύνη μας προς εκείνον που έπλασε τον νεολογισμό, θα πρέπει να τονίσουμε και το ρόλο του πρώτου τολμηρού που τον επανέλαβε. Εκεί, και μόνο τότε, άρχισε τη διαδρομή του ο πρωτολογισμός — αλλιώς θα έμενε «άπαξ λεγόμενον».


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## bernardina (Apr 7, 2014)

Για κάποιον ανεξήγητο λόγο, το μυαλό μου έφτιαξε συνειρμό με το game of thrones. 
Ευχαριστώ για τα καλά λόγια.


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## daeman (Apr 8, 2014)

...
All this time - Sting






Two priests came 'round our house tonight
One young, one old
To offer prayers for the dying
To serve the final rite
One to learn, one to teach
Which way the cold wind blows
Fussing and flapping in priestly black
_Like a murder of crows_

And all this time, the river flowed
Endlessly, to the sea

If I had my way, I'd take a boat from the river
And I'd bury the old man
I'd bury him at sea




bernardina said:


> Για κάποιον ανεξήγητο λόγο, το μυαλό μου έφτιαξε συνειρμό με το game of thrones.
> ...



_Murder of Crows_, second book in the _Others_ series by Anne Bishop


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## azimuthios (Apr 8, 2014)

Feast of Crows by George R.R. Martin, Bernie. :)


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## nickel (Apr 8, 2014)

Από τον πίνακα Group Names του βιβλίου _Words for a Modern Age_ (που δυστυχώς έχει μια σελίδα κρυμμένη, αλλιώς θα τον αντέγραφα εδώ) επισημαίνω το *a logorrhea of lexicographers*. Πόσο λανθασμένη αντίληψη έχουν κάποιοι για τη λεξικογραφία... :-(


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## Palavra (Oct 30, 2014)




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## dharvatis (Nov 2, 2014)

nickel said:


> Από τον πίνακα Group Names του βιβλίου _Words for a Modern Age_ (που δυστυχώς έχει μια σελίδα κρυμμένη, αλλιώς θα τον αντέγραφα εδώ) επισημαίνω το *a logorrhea of lexicographers*. Πόσο λανθασμένη αντίληψη έχουν κάποιοι για τη λεξικογραφία... :-(



Μα, _a bank of hematologists_;!; :lol: :lol: :lol:

Και LOL για το _attempted murder_ παραπάνω :-D


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## CoastalFog (Nov 2, 2014)

A subset of collective nouns is _terms of venery_ (originally _όροι κυνηγίου_ but now broadened to include all sorts of groups of animals).

Outside of poetry & prose, I'm not sure if there exists an equivalent subset of collective nouns for animals in Greek, is there?

Wikipedia has a good List of collective nouns in English, and a google search will return even more.

Such lists are always fun to read as they are constantly expanded to include groups of just about anything. Some recent ones sourced from bernardina's last link:

a flummox of questions (The Word Detective)
plus a _tattlery of comments_ from readers: _
We’ve just decided that the plural for “doofus” is to be: “doofi”.
We further hereby propose the collective noun for more than one doofus to be_
a chagrin of doofi
a brace of orthodontists
a lunacy or loonacy of loons
_a murder of crows... If there are only two crows is it an attempted murder?
Per the American Society of Crows and Ravens [...] the correct term is_
a caucus of crows [_rhymes with “raucous”_] 
_they’re social birds, if you count a wake a social event_
a google of searchers
a barrel of laughs
a flush of toilets

(_This one goes to my pal Daeman_)
How about ‘a string of asses….’?


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## nickel (Nov 2, 2014)

OK, διαγωνισμός:

Ποιος είναι ο καλύτερος περιληπτικός όρος για τα μέλη αυτού του φόρουμ, δηλαδή στη φράση «a ~ of Lexilogists»; Αποκλείεται το «a logorrhea of Lexilogists».

Έπαθλο: δωρεάν ευωχία στην επόμενη σύναξη του Λεξιλογιακού,


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## Zazula (Nov 2, 2014)

nickel said:


> OK, διαγωνισμός:
> 
> Ποιος είναι ο καλύτερος περιληπτικός όρος για τα μέλη αυτού του φόρουμ, δηλαδή στη φράση «a ~ of Lexilogists»; Αποκλείεται το «a logorrhea of Lexilogists».
> 
> Έπαθλο: δωρεάν ευωχία στην επόμενη σύναξη του Λεξιλογιακού,


Με τέτοιο έπαθλο, αξίζει περισσότερο κι από τζάκποτ στο Τζόκερ!

a cunninglingus of Lexilogists


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## cougr (Nov 2, 2014)

Καλό το cunninglingus! :twit:

I can only come up with something more prosaic, a _collexion of Lexilogians_.


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## daeman (Nov 2, 2014)

cougr said:


> ...
> I can only come up with something more prosaic, a _collexion of Lexilogians_.



When in lection, in a Lexi session, my predilection. 



Zazula said:


> Με τέτοιο έπαθλο, αξίζει περισσότερο κι από τζάκποτ στο Τζόκερ!
> 
> a cunninglingus of Lexilogists



Crackalickin'!



40 licks from me for that one! 



Spoiler











Dirty Licks, mind you.


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## daeman (Nov 2, 2014)

nickel said:


> ... στην επόμενη σύναξη του Λεξιλογιακού,



When gathered in person, a collocation of Lexilogists. 


For lurkers, a lectory of Lexilogists.


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## daeman (Nov 2, 2014)

CoastalFog said:


> ...
> How about ‘a string of asses….’?



Plus: _a thong of booties, a tangle of tangas_. And _a twerking of bottoms_, when hyperactive.


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## CoastalFog (Nov 3, 2014)

nickel said:


> Ποιος είναι ο καλύτερος περιληπτικός όρος για τα μέλη αυτού του φόρουμ, δηλαδή στη φράση «a ~ of Lexilogists»; Αποκλείεται το «a logorrhea of Lexilogists»



You mean like _a Lexicon of Lexilogists_? 
Hmm, sounds to me like a brave new thread.

OK, diversion party's over, folks. Back to the salt mines. We're already on page 2, and we haven't even BEGUN to answer bernardina's original question (myself included)!

Oh! What was the question again? 
_A murder of crows_ in Greek.
I'm no poet, I've no context, but I'm willing to take a shot _in the dark_ at it:

ένας
δρόνος κοράκων
λόχος λοκατζήδων κοράκων

μια 
πίσσα κοράκια
σπείρα κοράκια
μονάδα κοράκων καταδρομής
ορδή/συμμορία/διμοιρία/πανστρατιά κοράκων

ένα 
σμήνος/στίφος αιμοβόρων κοράκων
τάγμα κορακοκτόνων
πάνοπλο κορακολόι


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## daeman (Nov 3, 2014)

...
Poetry Foolery Fowlery in motion (picture)






—Τι προμηνάνε τα μαύρα και τα κόκκινα κοράκια*;
—Το καφεδάκι σας.


* Τα μαύρα ορθόδοξο παπαδαριό, τα κόκκινα καθολικό.

Disclaimer: no connection whatsoever to previous posts. Just me fowling around.


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## Paradiper_Du (Oct 20, 2015)

*NOUNS OF MULTITUDE*

A foreigner looking at a picture of a number of vessels, said, “See what a *flock *of ships.” He was told that a *flock *of ships was called a *fleet*, and that a fleet of sheep was called a *flock*. And it was added, for his guidance, in mastering the intricacies of our language, that a flock of girls is called a *bevy*, that a bevy of wolves is called a *pack*, and a pack of thieves is called a *gang*, and that a gang of angels is called a *host*, and that a host of porpoises is called a *shoal*, and a shoal of buffaloes is called a *herd*, and a herd of children is called a *troop*, and a troop of partridges is called a *covey*, and a covey of beauties is called a *galaxy*, and a galaxy of ruffians is called a *horde*, and a horde of rubbish is called a *heap*, and a heap of oxen is called a *drove*, and a drove of blackguards is called a *mob*, and a mob of whales is called a *school*, and a school of worshippers is called a *congregation*, and a congregation of engineers is called a *corps*, and a corps of robbers is called a *band*, and a band of locusts is called a *swarm*, and a swarm of people is called a *crowd*.

From
Charles C. Bombaugh. _Gleanings for the curious from the harvest-fields of literature: a mélange of excerpta_ (1875), p. 185.

https://archive.org/stream/gleaningsforcuri00bombiala#page/184/mode/2up


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## daeman (Dec 4, 2015)




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## Mindkaiser (Aug 4, 2016)

Είχα συναντήσει την έκφραση στο καταπληκτικό Sandman του Neil Gaiman.

*Synopsis for "The Parliament of Rooks"*

One day, Lyta Hall puts her son Daniel Hall to bed while she talks to her friend on the phone. In sleeping, Daniel enters the Dreaming. 

On the steps of the House of Secrets, Daniel encounters Matthew the Raven and Eve, who lead him inside to take tea with Abel. Their gathering is interrupted by Cain, who maliciously suggests that each of them tell a story to the little boy. 

Cain offers a mystery; the mystery of the parliament of rooks. Each member of the corvidae family of birds has an interesting name for a gathering thereof: *a murder of crows, a tiding of magpies, an unkindness of ravens, and a parliament of rooks*. The last gets its name from the fact that often, these gatherings of rooks will form a circle around a single rook, like in a parliament or trial. That bird makes specific calls until one of two outcomes occurs. Either the entire gathered parliament flies away leaving the lone rook alone in the field, or they all turn on that rook and peck it to death. The reason why the birds do this is the great mystery. 

Next, Eve reluctantly tells a story. She explains that Adam had three wives. The first was Lilith. She was a powerful woman, who would not be subservient to him, and as such, she was expelled from the Garden of Eden, and would not return. Some say, she mated with the angels and demons. The second wife had no name. She was made from nothing, before Adam's eyes. He watched as her bones formed, and then her organs, and then her muscles, bile and skin. Because he had seen what she was made from, Adam would not look at her. Some say she was destroyed by God, others say she was simply cast out of the Garden. At last, Eve was made from Adam's rib, and as is commonly known, she and Adam ate from the Tree of Knowledge, and were cast out of the Garden as well. 

Next, Abel tells his story; a secret. He tells that long ago, before the known world was a speck in space, Death and Dream went walking. One day, they passed by two brothers who were fighting. The one brother had offered a sheep to the creator, and the other his crops of fruits and vegetables. The creator was more pleased by the sheep, and so the elder brother who had offered crops became angry, and killed the younger. Death came to him, planning to take him to a garden of her own. Dream, however offered the younger brother a place in his own garden, as a guardian of secrets. He was given his own house full of secrets to look after, but he soon grew lonely, so he visited Dream. Dream offered him a gift. When the younger brother returned to his home, he found another house full of mysteries next door to his own, and his elder brother was its custodian. Reuinited, the brothers lived side by side for eternity. 

Matthew wonders if all of these stories are true, and Abel nearly gives away the secret of the parliament of rooks, but Cain prevents him, sending everyone home instead. 

As Eve carries Daniel and Matthew from the house, Abel defies his brother, poking his head out the window, and revealing that it is not a parliament at all. The rook in the centre of the circle is a story teller, and the result is the other rooks' response to the story. Angrily, Cain kills his brother again, warning that mysteries are more exciting to the mind than the secrets behind them. 

Lyta realizes that it's her son's dinner time, and goes to wake him. She picks him up in her arms, but she is confused to find a very dirty raven's feather with him. She thinks little of it, wondering about the mysteries that surround her son. 

http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Sandman_Vol_2_40


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## daeman (Mar 22, 2017)




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## dharvatis (Oct 11, 2017)

A pair of introverts is called an *awkward*.
A group of introverts is called an *angst*.


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## pontios (Oct 12, 2017)

A group of Italian war heroes ... an exaggeration/an embellishment/a cowering?


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## drsiebenmal (Jul 16, 2018)

Από το Ιντερνέτι:


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## daeman (Apr 29, 2021)

Astronomers at LIGO are looking for a good collective noun for a group of black holes. Suggestions include a crush, a mosh pit, a silence, an enigma, a void, and a disaster.




__ https://www.facebook.com/OfficialQI/posts/4506567776024390




LIGO


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## pontios (Apr 30, 2021)

... holy moly, don't they have better things to do (the astronomers at LIGO)?


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## daeman (Apr 30, 2021)

pontios said:


> ... holy moly, don't they have better things to do (the astronomers at LIGO)?



A holy moly of blackholics.


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## cougr (Apr 30, 2021)

Re: a group of black holes

An alibi, perhaps. Or maybe a sock-full


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## pontios (Apr 30, 2021)

They (the LIDO team) are "_the"_ holy moly/ant's pants/bee's knees of blackholics.


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## pontios (Apr 30, 2021)

cougr said:


> Re: a group of black holes
> 
> ... maybe a sock-full


... that's pretty darn good (or in need of some good darning - a swift GRB of it).


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## daeman (Oct 15, 2021)




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## Zazula (Jun 10, 2022)

Μια που φέτο έγιναν (πάλι) της μοδός οι μέδουσες, πώς προτείνετε να αποδώσουμε το δικό τους κοπαδώνυμο, το *smack*;


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## nickel (Jun 10, 2022)

Κοίτα, μην αρχίσουμε τώρα προσπάθεια για εξαντρίκ αποδόσεις. Βολευόμαστε με το *κοπάδι* μέδουσες / τσούχτρες.


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## Zazula (Jun 11, 2022)

nickel said:


> Βολευόμαστε με το *κοπάδι* μέδουσες / τσούχτρες.


Κον Νίκελ, ενταύθα:


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## nickel (Jun 11, 2022)

Καλό είναι και το *σμήνος,* ιδίως όταν το κοπάδι οι μέδουσες θυμίζουν πτώση αλεξιπτωτιστών. Ή, ας πούμε, για σμήνος χελιδονόψαρα.


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## Palavra (Sep 26, 2022)




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## cougr (Sep 26, 2022)

Τέλειο το παραπάνω, αλλά φαντάζομαι ότι θα `ναι πολλοί αυτοί που δεν θα το πιάσουν.

Edit: (Εκτός αν μας διαβάζουν)


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## Palavra (Sep 28, 2022)

:) :) :) 
Είναι συνέχεια τουτουνού: https://www.lexilogia.gr/threads/a-murder-of-crows.14742/post-229971


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## Duke_of_Waltham (Sep 28, 2022)

cougr said:


> Τέλειο το παραπάνω, αλλά φαντάζομαι ότι θα `ναι πολλοί αυτοί που δεν θα το πιάσουν.


Κι εγώ δεν το 'πιασα μέχρι που σκέφτηκα τον πρωτότυπο τίτλο της ταινίας.


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## AoratiMelani (Sep 29, 2022)

Duke_of_Waltham said:


> Κι εγώ δεν το 'πιασα μέχρι που σκέφτηκα τον πρωτότυπο τίτλο της ταινίας.


Ε ναι προφανώς. Κι εμένα μου πήρε τρία κλικ, όταν το πρωτοείδα στο facebook. Όταν το βλέπεις αναρτημένο σ' αυτό το νήμα, είσαι ήδη ψυλλιασμένος, οπότε πάει πιο εύκολα το μυαλό σου.


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## pontios (Sep 30, 2022)

Well I don't want to "depluralise murder about it", but I got it in one.


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## Palavra (Oct 3, 2022)

AoratiMelani said:


> Ε ναι προφανώς. Κι εμένα μου πήρε τρία κλικ, όταν το πρωτοείδα στο facebook. Όταν το βλέπεις αναρτημένο σ' αυτό το νήμα, είσαι ήδη ψυλλιασμένος, οπότε πάει πιο εύκολα το μυαλό σου.


Αυτό είναι από εκείνα που σου παίρνει μερικά δευτερόλεπτα να το καταλάβεις και μετά φτύνεις τον καφέ σου.


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