# How does this sentence sound to you ?



## pontios (Aug 10, 2012)

Good morning.
I need some help, please, with the following sentence.
*He decided, then and there, that his best chance to provide for his family, during the (German) occupation. was to continue merchandising.
*
Does the sentence sound right ?
For some reason the last phrase, "was to continue merchandising" feels out of place (to me anyway).
Even if the start of the sentence is restated as .. 
He decided, then and there, that his best chance *of providing for* his family, was to continue merchandising.
The last phrase still doesn't feel like it belongs (within the sentence), to me ?

I'm wondering if anything is improved by ending the sentence with ... *was by continuing to merchandise* ?

If the word *"continue "*wasn't part of the sentence, a possible solution could be ? ; "lay in merchandising", or the sentence could be re-tweaked with "would be offered by merchandising ", but as I need to include the word "continue" in there, can anyone come up with an elegant solution, that leaves no lingering doubts.


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## nickel (Aug 10, 2012)

They all sound right to me. Here's an alternative, just to keep you wondering:

There and then he decided that his best chance of providing for his family during the Occupation was to stick to his merchandising.


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## pontios (Aug 10, 2012)

> There and then he decided that his best chance of providing for his family during the Occupation was to stick to his merchandising.


Thank you nickel.
I like the way you've restated it ; you've opened up new possibilities and for some reason it actually sounds 
better than all my attempts.

Actually which of these gets the biggest thumbs up ? (maybe I'll get you wondering now ?)

1. He decided, then and there, that his best chance to provide for his family, during the Occupation, was to stick to merchandising.
2 He decided, then and there, that his best chance to provide for his family, during the Occupation, was to stick to *his *merchandising
3. He decided, then and there, that his best chance to provide for his family, during the Occupation. was to continue with his merchandising.
4. There and then he decided that his best chance of providing for his family during the Occupation was to stick to *his* merchandising.
5 There and then he decided that his best chance of providing for his family during the Occupation was to stick to merchandising.
6. There and then he decided that his best chance of providing for his family during the Occupation was to continue his merchandising.
7, There and then he decided that his best chance of providing for his family during the Occupation was to continue with his merchandising.

Also which way do we go - *then and there* or *there and then* ?


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## Philip (Aug 10, 2012)

You could also say "carry on merchandising".

I generally use _there and then_, but t' other way round sounds equally fine.

Your 1, 2, & 3 have commas round _during the occupation_, which are otiose.
Your 7 seems (as a first impression) to have something negative about it, as if the writer thinks that it was not the best solution.


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## Philip (Aug 10, 2012)

As a second thought, putting _there and then_ at the beginning of the sentence gives it greater force than if it follows the subject and verb. To decide between these I would need to take the preceding sentence(s) into account.


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## pontios (Aug 10, 2012)

Philip said:


> As a second thought, putting _there and then_ at the beginning of the sentence gives it greater force than if it follows the subject and verb. To decide between these I would need to take the preceding sentence(s) into account.



Thank you Philip
Here's the paragraph that the sentence slots into. You can see which one I've decided to go with.
Do you agree with my choice ?

Whilst unloading and storing away the provisions, kindly supplied by his relatives, he found himself making new plans. He decided, then and there, that his best chance to provide for his family during the Occupation, was to stick to his merchandising. His main concern was that the merchandise would still need to be sourced from the wholesale markets in Thessaloniki, which were some 150 kilometres away now.


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## cougr (Aug 10, 2012)

FWIW pontios, I prefer a slightly modified version of the second example of the sentence that you provided in your initial post . 

Eg. He decided then and there, that his best chance of providing for his family during the Occupation, was to continue merchandising.


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## pontios (Aug 11, 2012)

Thanks cougr, .. I might go with that too.
If you strip your suggested sentence right back to .. "his best chance was to continue merchandising", it reads quite well.


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## Philip (Aug 11, 2012)

Hi Pontie,
Given the paragraph, I would agree with your choice.
Not happy about the comma after _provisions_. Strikes me as awkward.

@Cougr
Not sure about the commas - they do not enclose a parenthetical clause or phrase. The sentence seems ok to me without any commas (and just one of the two isn't an option) :)


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## cougr (Aug 12, 2012)

Okay, thanks Philip. I have a tendency of overusing the comma, particularly at the beginning of long sentences where the introductory phrase or clause consists of several words and also towards the end of a long sentence where I feel a pause seems evident.


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## Jacquelineditor (Aug 13, 2012)

I couldn't resist chiming in (especially since I taught Nickel many years ago and have been an editor most of my life). I'd adopt his gerund and idiom, and eliminate commas as follows:
He decided, then and there, that his best chance of providing for his family during the Occupation was to stick to merchandising.


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## cougr (Aug 13, 2012)

Delighted to have you chiming in Jacquelineditor but may I ask what "his gerund and idiom" refers to? It's got me slightly stumped.


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## cougr (Aug 13, 2012)

I got it! No need to reply Jacqueline.


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## pontios (Aug 13, 2012)

Thank you all and I need to watch my extra commas !

One thing still bothers me (regardless of which version of the sentence is chosen) ; we can safely say that :
Merchandising offered him the most effective *means*, i.e., the best way of providing for his family ; but can merchandising ( as in the activity, itself) ever be considered a *chance* or the *best chance* (of providing for his family) ?
His best chance maybe was *via* merchandising, but can his best chance *be* merchandising ?
Is everyone following me ?
I still see a flaw for some reason, within the original sentence itself as it's somehow equating *chance* with *merchandising *. I'm not sure if I'm explaining myself adequately.
I deliberately left out the word/verb "continue",above, to simplify things, and in order to help me illustrate my point.


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## Philip (Aug 13, 2012)

"chance" works ok, in a loose kind of way - if it were spoken language, very few people would even give it a second thought. It strikes me as more informal (rather than logically flawed) and to be dispreferred for that reason..


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## nickel (Aug 13, 2012)

Jacquelineditor said:


> ...especially since I taught Nickel many years ago ...


People may now start talking about the monster you have created...
Καλημέρα.


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## pontios (Aug 13, 2012)

Thanks again Philip.

How does this sound ?

He decided, there and then, that the most effective way of providing for his family during the Occupation remained merchandising.

or ?

He decided, there and then, that merchandising remained the most effective way of providing for his family during the Occupation.


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## nickel (Aug 13, 2012)

Definitely the second one.


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## pontios (Aug 14, 2012)

Thank you nickel.

Here's one way, perhaps, to incorporate "chance" into the sentence (whilst adopting your gerund and idiom ;)) :

He decided, then and there, to stick to his merchandising ; he saw it as (still?) offering(or he saw that it offered/he could see that it offered/having determined, after determining that it still offered ?) the best chance to provide for his family during the Occupation.

Que pensez-vous?


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## cougr (Aug 14, 2012)

Any chance of providing the original sentence in Greek?


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## pontios (Aug 14, 2012)

cougr said:


> Any chance of providing the original sentence in Greek?



I'm running for cover now, as I bare my soul :

Εκείνο κιόλας το βράδυ αποφάσισε να το ρίξει στο μικρεμπόριο για την εξασφάλισή τροφίμων, όσο διάστημα θα διαρκούσε η Γερμανική κατοχή.

I'll give you the reasons why I took some liberties with this translation.
Two sentences prior, it had already been established that he had returned late that evening, just before dusk, and that he was making new plans whilst unloading his wagon (at his new home) in Florina. So I translated "Εκείνο κιόλας το βράδυ", as "there and then", to bring an idiom into play (and I felt time was of little consequence, anyway).

I thought I should also take into account that Barba-Dimitri (the character concerned) was already involved in merchandising. in Thessaloniki, at the onset of the Occupation (something that the sentence in Greek seemed to ignore). So what he was in fact doing was deciding to *stick to merchandising*, for the long haul (for the duration of the Occupation) and I just wanted to reconcile this sentence with the storyline (thus ensure consistency).
I translated "εξασφάλισή τροφίμων" as "providing for his family". 

I introduced "chance" into it and I regret it. That was entirely my doing.
I nevertheless wanted to see if someone else could sense a flaw with the sentence and I think it was worthwhile to examine it, for that very reason.
I also thought it (merchandising) should be stated as the "best way" ; the best (most suitable) option for him, to provide for his family.


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## pontios (Aug 14, 2012)

I suppose I could have gone with something like ;

He decided, there and then, that he would throw himself into ( or he would commit himself, wholeheartedly ? ,to) merchandising for the long haul (or for however long the Occupation happens to last) to provide for his family.

Does the more literal translation sound better ?


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## cougr (Aug 14, 2012)

Don't have the time to finesse it right now but my immediate attempt at it is this:

That very evening/same night he decided that in order to secure food for the table he would throw himself (wholeheartedly) into merchandising for the length of the Occupation/for as long as the Occupation would last.


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## cougr (Aug 14, 2012)

In place of "wholeheartedly" you may want to consider "earnestly".


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## pontios (Aug 15, 2012)

Thanks cougr, I appreciate your help.
I'll need to rework some other sentences in the book, so I'll be posting more in the future.


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## pontios (Aug 15, 2012)

Does this read ok, by the way ?

He decided, that very evening, that he would throw himself into merchandising, during the Occupation (for however long it would last), to ensure there'd be food on the table.

or ?

He decided, that very evening, that he would throw himself into merchandising, during the Occupation (for as long as it would last), to ensure there'd be food on the table


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## Jacquelineditor (Aug 15, 2012)

pontios said:


> Does this read ok, by the way ?
> 
> He decided, that very evening, that he would throw himself into merchandising, during the Occupation (for however long it would last), to ensure there'd be food on the table.
> 
> ...



No comma after merchandising!!


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## pontios (Aug 15, 2012)

Thank you Jacqueline and I actually realised that, but it was too late to edit (at that stage).
It makes perfect sense that "during the Occupation" should directly follow merchandising, without the comma, as it's part of the same clause.


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## cougr (Aug 15, 2012)

pontios said:


> Does this read ok, by the way ?
> 
> ........during the Occupation (for however long it would last)..........
> 
> ...



I think you nailed it previously with: "for the duration of the Occupation".

It's incredible that after 29 posts (and still counting) we're still chipping away at this.:)


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## pontios (Aug 15, 2012)

cougr said:


> I think you nailed it previously with: "for the duration of the Occupation".
> 
> It's incredible that after 29 posts (and still counting) we're still chipping away at this.:)



Very well, then ; let's hope the punctuation is right.

With a drum roll, fanfare. ticker-tape parade, salvo, plus "Ode to Joy" playing in the background, followed by a sigh of relief ; our peripatetic journey is officially over and here it is, set in stone :

He decided, that very evening, that he would throw himself into merchandising for the duration of the Occupation, to ensure there'd be food on the table.


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## pontios (Aug 15, 2012)

Actually, I don't like the two "thats", at the start of the sentence, so I've reverted to "there and then".

So now it's set in stone : :blush: (granite, not sandstone this time)
He decided, there and then, that he would throw himself into merchandising for the duration of the Occupation, to ensure there'd be food on the table.


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## nickel (Aug 15, 2012)

Hi, I'm back. And I still love the simplicity of:

He decided, there and then, that his best chance of providing for his family during the Occupation was to stick to merchandising.

(Chris, change 'stick' if you think the situation is different. And stop going round in circles. You're only getting dizzy and making it worse. :) )


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## pontios (Aug 15, 2012)

nickel said:


> Hi, I'm back. And I still love the simplicity of:
> 
> He decided, there and then, that his best chance of providing for his family during the Occupation was to stick to merchandising.
> 
> (Chris, change 'stick' if you think the situation is different. And stop going round in circles. You're only getting dizzy and making it worse. :) )



Sorry, you're right of course Nick and I'll try to be more careful in the future.

It is simple and it was my first choice, but I can't get past the fact that it's a flawed sentence and that I sensed it as such.

He decided, there and then, that merchandising would offer him the best chance to provide for his family during the Occupation.


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## Jacquelineditor (Aug 18, 2012)

But, the expression is "then and there" -- reversing the two words does not sound right at all. Mind you, even granite becomes sand if you wait long enough...


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## nickel (Aug 18, 2012)

Jacquelineditor said:


> But, the expression is "then and there" -- reversing the two words does not sound right at all.


Καλημέρα. I don't know about your side of the Atlantic, but the Brits are not so particular about it:
there and then
then and there
In Google books, the latter gives twice as many hits. "There and then" is correct in only about 1,310,000 cases. :)


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## Jacquelineditor (Aug 19, 2012)

nickel said:


> Καλημέρα. I don't know about your side of the Atlantic, but the Brits are not so particular about it:
> there and then
> then and there
> In Google books, the latter gives twice as many hits. "There and then" is correct in only about 1,310,000 cases. :)



Oh, all right, if you say so...I've never heard it the British way (inverted). Two countries divided by a common language!


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