# τίποτε χρώμα της κραβάτας, σχήμα του κολλάρου



## Theseus (Oct 24, 2016)

Here is the full poem for those who don't know it(!):-

EN ΤΗ ΟΔΩ

Το συμπαθητικό του πρόσωπο, κομμάτι ωχρό, 
τα καστανά του μάτια, σαν κομένα, 
είκοσι πέντε ετών, πλην μοιάζει μάλλον είκοσι, 
με κάτι καλλιτεχνικό στο ντύσιμό του 
- *τίποτε χρώμα της κραβάτας, σχήμα του κολλάρου* - 
ασκόπως περπατεί μες στην οδό, 
ακόμη σαν υπνωτισμένος από την άνομη ηδονή, 
από την πολύ άνομη ηδονή που απέκτησε.

What is the exact significance of the word τίποτε here? My translation renders it as 'in the hint of the tie, in the shape of the collar.' So Sachperoglu. 
-the colo(u)r of his tie, the shape of his collar- is Keeley & Sherrard's translation.
Does it just mean 'something/anything' & the rest of the line brings out what that something or anything is?:twit:


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## drsiebenmal (Oct 24, 2016)

(Ι corrected the title: ΕΝ Τ*Η* ΟΔΩ)

Imho, *τίποτε* is here best attributed to the meaning I.2 from ΛΚΝ: 2. σε ερωτηματική πρόταση με τη σημασία του *μήπως*, *μήπως τυχόν*: _Πήγες ~ κι εσύ μαζί τους; Mήπως ενοχλώ ~; Bρέχει ~; Tους έχετε ~ συγγενείς;_ 

... με κάτι καλλιτεχνικό στο ντύσιμό του
- (μήπως το) χρώμα της κραβάτας, (το) σχήμα του κολλάρου -


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## Theseus (Oct 24, 2016)

Thanks, Dr. I have been away for a short break to Cornwall & I had no access to the internet. My dictionaries were good but limited in what they covered. I have a parallel text of Kavafy's canonical poems & I have been captivated by them. I've mulled over half of the Canon & I shall read over the 'hidden' poems later. But there were one or two points of linguistic interest - like τίποτε which caused me some trouble. The way that Cavafy brings together history & profound poetical reflection is riveting. After all, as my Ancient History tutor used to say 'history is about chaps: always remember that. Events are not inevitable.' I thought of these words, uttered so long ago, when I read Απολείπειν ο θεός Aντώνιον. Sublime simplicity.


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## drsiebenmal (Oct 24, 2016)

Composer Dimos Moutsis melodized in his 1975 "Tetralogia" a selection of poems from Cavafy, Seferis, Caryotakis and Ritsos and entrusted some of them to then newbie and now renowned singer Alkistis Protopsalti. This is _Απολείπειν ο Θεός Αντώνιον_ from Τετραλογία:


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## nickel (Oct 24, 2016)

Here's Daniel Mendelsohn’s translation:

In the Street

His appealing face, somewhat pallid;
his chestnut eyes, looking tired;
twenty-five years old, but looks more like twenty;
with something artistic about his clothes
—something in the color of the tie, the collar’s shape—
aimlessly he ambles down the street,
as if still hypnotized by the illicit pleasure,
by the very illicit pleasure he has had.


"από την πολύ άνομη ηδονή που απέκτησε" — Excellent example for the teaching of the difference between πολύ and πολλή.


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## Theseus (Oct 24, 2016)

Thanks, Nik! I'm not sure about the consistently natural quality of the English of all Mendelsohn's translations. This borders on his worst:-
One Night 

The room was threadbare and tawdry,
hidden above that suspect restaurant.
From the window you could see the alley,
which was filthy and narrow. From below
came the voices of some laborers
who were playing cards and having a carouse.

And there in that common, vulgar bed
I had the body of love, I had the lips,
sensuous and rose-colored, of drunkenness –
the rose of such a drunkenness, that even now
as I write, after so many years have passed!,
in my solitary house, I am drunk again.

Keeley & Sherrard translate it thus:-

One Night 

The room was cheap and sordid,
hidden above the suspect taverna.
From the window you could see the alley,
dirty and narrow. From below
came the voices of workmen
playing cards, enjoying themselves.

And there on that ordinary, plain bed
I had love’s body, knew those intoxicating lips,
red and sensual,
red lips so intoxicating
that now as I write, after so many years,
in my lonely house, I’m drunk with passion again.

The latter conveys much more of the atmosphere of Cavafy's original. A tavern is not a taverna nor do we carouse often: such a word has overtones of Germans with their meerschaums & lederhosen, singing 'wunderbar'': indeed, the word itself comes from the Germanic garaustrinken.

His translation of In the Street is better. I too am a classicist like Mendelsohn & am used to translations of Greek or Latin poetry into English. As a general rule, a poet who is a classicist is the best translator: s/he has a feeling for language. Non-poetical classicist translators can vary enormously. Mendelsohn often rises to the occasion but his worst attempts were (alas!) all too familiar in the past.


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## daeman (Oct 24, 2016)

...
One Night

The room was poor and shabby, a secret room above
the dubious tavern. From the window could be seen
dark shadows moving in a squalid narrow lane;
and from below came voices of town labourers
who now were loud at cards now voiced their jollity
with wanton song or joke, and called for drinks between.

And there — on the plebeian, unattractive bed
I had possession of the glowing body of love,
I had the inebriating lips voluptuously red —
the full red lips of such an inebriety
that even now, after so many eventful years,
writing thereof in my lone house, I reel again. 

Translated by John Cavafy
(_Poems by C. P. Cavafy._ Translated, from the Greek, by J. C. Cavafy. Ikaros, 2003) 


The room above the bar
was the cheapest we could find.
We could see the filthy alley
from the window, hear the shouts
of the workmen at their card-games.

Yet there on that narrow bed
I had love’s body, knew its red lips;
those lips so full, so bloody with desire
that now as I write, after so many years,
in this lonely house... I’m drunk with them again.

Translated by Don Paterson
(Don Paterson, _Landing Light_, Faber and Faber, 2003) 


Μια Νύχτα (ανάγνωση)
(διαβάζει: Λαμπέτη Έλλη, Η Έλλη Λαμπέτη διαβάζει Καβάφη, Διόνυσος 1983)
(διαβάζει: Σαββίδης Γ. Π., K.Π. Kαβάφη, Ποιήματα, I, (1896-1918), Διόνυσος)
(διαβάζει: Σαββίδης Γ. Π., K.Π. Kαβάφης. Πενήντα οκτώ ποιήματα. Διαβάζει ο Γ.Π. Σαββίδης, Ποικίλη Στοά-Σπουδαστήριο Nέου Eλληνισμού 1999)
(διαβάζει: Σουλιώτης Μίμης, Ανέκδοτη ηχογράφηση, Αθήνα 2002)

The *Cavafy Archive* website was created by the Center for Neo-Hellenic Studies and is owned by the Onassis Foundation. It contains all of Cavafy’s major works in the translation of Edmund Keeley and Philip Sherrard (edited by G.P. Savidis), plus select alternative translations. It also contains a wealth of unpublished material from the poet’s Archive, plus a Cavafy Companion section and up-to-date information on Cavafy’s seminal presence in today’s world, as seen through the web.

+ recitations of selected poems, Theseus, for listening comprehension, acoustic education and aural pleasure.




drsiebenmal said:


> Composer Dimos Moutsis melodized in his 1975 "Tetralogia" a selection of poems from Cavafy, Seferis, Caryotakis and Ritsos and entrusted some of them to then newbie and now renowned singer Alkistis Protopsalti. This is _Απολείπειν ο Θεός Αντώνιον_ from Τετραλογία:
> ...



Με πρόλαβες, Δόκτορα. 



daeman said:


> sarant said:
> 
> 
> > [...]
> ...



Bonus track:


daeman said:


> Η Έλλη Λαμπέτη διαβάζει την _Ιθάκη._ Kι εδώ η μετάφραση του Μέντελσον.


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## Theseus (Oct 24, 2016)

Thanks, so much Dr & Daeman. It is very helpful to compare translations. Was John Cavafy his brother? When did he die?


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## daeman (Oct 24, 2016)

...
In 1923, 10 years before his brother.

74 Letters From John C. Cavafy to Constantine Cavafy


Bonus track: 

Sean Connery reads the Keeley/Sherrard translation of "Ithaka"






Music composed, arranged, produced and performed by Vangelis


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## Theseus (Oct 25, 2016)

The minds of so many lexilogists are full of information & inspiration. Thanks, Daeman, & all who have initiated me into the modern Greek mysteries. I owe a great debt of gratitude. Σε όλους σας χρωστώ μεγάλη ευγνωμοσύνη.


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## drsiebenmal (Nov 12, 2016)

Δεν ξέρω αν εδώ είναι το καλύτερο σημείο, ας μείνει αν το έχουμε και αλλού ή ας αλλάξει, όπου του πρέπει... 

Alexandra Leaving, Leonard Cohen:


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## daeman (Nov 12, 2016)

drsiebenmal said:


> Δεν ξέρω αν εδώ είναι το καλύτερο σημείο, ας μείνει αν το έχουμε και αλλού ή ας αλλάξει, όπου του πρέπει...
> ...



Κακό σημείο γι' αυτό το κομμάτι δεν νομίζω να υπάρχει :) κι ας μείνει, παρότι το έχουμε ήδη δυοτρείς φορές (σίγουρα μία το έχει βάλει ο Νίκελ κι άλλη μία εγώ), αλλά βαριέμαι να το ψάξω τώρα. Τι πειράζει; Τα ηλεκτρόνια δεν γκρινιάζουν, κι όποιος δεν το θέλει στο νήμα, ας το προσπεράσει.


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