# σαν είναι να φτάνεις στην κορφή



## Theseus (Sep 24, 2016)

Some climbers have climbed beyond a thick mist, which had come down quickly, to a sunlit place where the view was magnificent & the mist lay beneath, like an undiscovered ocean. This is the sentence in context. After everyone had expressed their wonder, a girl in the party expressed her amazement to an old man beside her. He replied :-
-Σου το είπα, κόρη μου. Σαν είναι να φτάνεις στην κορφή, μην απελπίζεσαι. Θα είσαι στην κορφή!


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## Inachus (Sep 24, 2016)

Maybe: 
Σαν είναι να φτάνεις στην κορφή ~ Once you get near the peak


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## daeman (Sep 24, 2016)

Inachus said:


> Maybe:
> Σαν είναι να φτάνεις στην κορφή ~ Once you get near the peak



+1. When _you're about to be_ _reaching _the peak (to use a similar construct in English).


*είμαι *... *18. *(στο γ' πρόσ.) ..*. **ε.* *πρόκειται*: _Ήταν να φύγω αλλά δεν μπόρεσα._ || _Είναι να έρθει, δεν ξέρω αν θα τα καταφέρει. Ήταν να πάμε στο χωριό. _

A very well-known verse with «είναι να», although in a slightly different sense, I think, that of destiny:

*Αν είναι να 'ρθει θέ' να 'ρθεί;* (αλλιώς θα προσπεράσει) = If *it's to* come, it'll come (otherwise it'll pass by).

Ειδέ κι αν έχεις φωτεινό, το σπίτι για να τη δεχθείς,
και σα φανεί, τρέξεις σ' αυτή κι εμπρός στα πόδια της συρθείς,
αν είναι να 'ρθει, θε να 'ρθεί, αλλιώς θα προσπεράσει.

http://lexilogia.gr/forum/showthrea...ηνικής-ποίησης&p=140039&viewfull=1#post140039

an impersonal syntax in Greek, not so in English, except for higher powers: If it's going to rain, it'll rain. 

Que sera sera, whatever will be will be.


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## drsiebenmal (Sep 24, 2016)

Theseus said:


> -Σου το είπα, κόρη μου. Σαν είναι να φτάνεις στην κορφή, μην απελπίζεσαι. Θα είσαι στην κορφή!


«Σαν» is used here in place of «όταν»: Όταν είναι να φτάνεις στην κορφή etc. like Inachus and daeman said.


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## Theseus (Sep 24, 2016)

Thanks to all three of you! The small words are always rather tricky, until you, as it were, learn to get the nuance from the context. Do the lines quoted above by Daeman mean:-
Even if you have your house bright to receive her
And, when she appears, you run & grovel before her feet; 
If it is to come, come it will -- otherwise it will pass by.

I think I've made full sense of the whole poem, posted on the forum by Bernadina. But I blush to put my translation to the forum, in case I make beautiful Greek read like a shopping list. Thanks again.


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## daeman (Sep 24, 2016)

Theseus said:


> ... The small words are always rather tricky, until you, as it were, learn to get the nuance from the context.
> 
> Do the lines quoted above by Daeman mean:-
> Even if you have your house bright to receive her
> ...



Absolutely! When translating —particularly when subtitling because then most of the time it's the live, vibrant spoken word, frequently elliptical, that I'm facing and feel obliged to convey the nuances it carries— I usually have almost no trouble with long words, at least none that can't be solved by consulting good dictionaries or doing the proper research when it comes to technical terms, or resorting to a common effort with fellow Lexilogists if all else fails, whereas I may be staring for minutes on end at a simple "Hey" or "So" (for a not so good example) when it's loaded, so I shouldn't omit it, and the context doesn't help much and I hate to render it with something standard, almost mechanically, or thinking about that on and off for hours. 

As for your question about the poem verse, you've done a great job. That "ειδέ" is a pain in the neck without proper context, since it could mean so many different things, as you can see from the relevant entry in Kriaras:

*ειδέ*, σύνδ.· _είδε· ειδές· ουδέ. _*1) **α)* *Έτσι και, σε περίπτωση που, αν*: _Ειδέ στραφεί κανείς ποσώς και ιδεί το μοναστήρι_ (Προδρ. ΙV 257)· *β)* εκφρ. *ειδέ και (αν)* = *έτσι και, σε περίπτωση που, αν*: (Διγ. Άνδρ. 323[SUP]3[/SUP]), (Σπαν. (Ζώρ.) V 217). *2) **α)* *Αλλιώς, ειδεμή*: (Κώδ. Χρονογρ. 50[SUP]24[/SUP])· *β)* εκφρ. (1) _ειδ(έ) αλλέως_ και _ειδές αλλιώς,_ βλ. _αλλέως_ Εκφρ. 1, 2· (2) _ειδέ/ουδέ καν ου,_ βλ. _καν_ Εκφρ. 7. *3)* *Αλλά, όμως, ενώ*: _οι σκύλλοι είναι ολιγόζωτοι …, ειδέ ο θυμός του αφέντη πολομά πολλήν ζημίαν εις ρέντες_ (Μαχ. 244[SUP]27[/SUP]). *4)* *Είτε*: _μαρτυρίαν απού τον είδαν να το αγοράσει είδε εχαρίσαν του το_ (Ασσίζ. 174[SUP]3[/SUP]). *5)* (Με προηγ. άρν.) *ούτε*: _αν ουδέν ένι κελεφή (ενν. η γυναίκα) ειδέ σεληνιάζεται_ (Ασσίζ. 124[SUP]22[/SUP]). *6)* *Όταν, μόλις*: _Ειδέ οι παράνομοι Τούρκοι εμάθαν τα πικρά μαντάτα … ελυπήθησαν πολλά_ (Μαχ. 134[SUP]8‑9[/SUP]). *7)* *Τότε λοιπόν*: _Ειδέ οι Γενουβήσοι, … αρχέψαν και εμουρμουρίζαν εις την Αμμόχουστον να έλθου_ (Μαχ. 552[SUP]25[/SUP]). [<συνεκφ. _ει δε_ (αρχ.). Η λ. και σήμ. ιδιωμ.]


In this case, "_ειδέ κι αν"_ falls under sense 1.b. (_έτσι και, σε περίπτωση που, αν_) as the context suggests, particularly the previous verse in juxtaposition with the first line of the last one:

*Κλειστά όλα να 'ναι*, θα τη δεις έξαφνα 'μπρος σου να βρεθεί
κι ανοίγοντας τα μπράτσα της πρώτη θα σ' αγκαλιάσει.

*Ειδέ κι αν έχεις φωτεινό το σπίτι *για να τη δεχθείς...

_"And if"_ or _"even if"_ as you have it works just fine, I think.


Now, about your translation of the whole poem, "if you're blushing, you'll be starving" (Όποιος ντρέπεται, νηστικός θ' απομείνει) as my grandma used to say. If you hesitate to ask, you'll be stuck with the question, as I always say to students in class. I don't believe even for a moment that you'd make a "shopping list" of those verses, but anyway, in Lexilogia we've been known to turn even a shopping list into some sort of poetry, or at least a proper mantinada.


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## Theseus (Sep 25, 2016)

Thanks for all the information, Daeman! Your grandmother's adage is memorable, as, of course, are your mantinades.


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## Theseus (Sep 25, 2016)

This is my full translation of the poem. I have used 'she' & 'it' indiscriminately. Perhaps I should have used 'she' throughout.

It’s no use waiting and standing at the door of the house, 
with your eyes fixed on the dead streets,
if it is to come, come it will, without you sensing from where
and approaching behind you with steps extinguished.

With her two white hands she will softly close your eyes, 
so tired with looking down the streets; 
and when laughing she will ask you to tell her : “Who am I?”
From the fluttering of your heart you will know who she is.

It is no use waiting; if it is to come, come it will;
All ways may be blocked: you will see her suddenly appear before you
And opening her arms she will embrace you first.

Even if you have your house bright to receive her
and when she appears, you will grovel at her feet
If she is to come, come she will —otherwise she will pass by.

:wub:


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## Earion (Sep 25, 2016)

Well done, Theseus! Marvellous work!
One point only —you should have used “she” throughout, since the subject is feminine: η αγάπη.


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## Theseus (Sep 25, 2016)

Thanks, Earion. I did mention that in my preliminary note. But Daeman had translated it as 'if it is to come, it will come'. I should have said 'she' throughout.


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## daeman (Sep 25, 2016)

...
Bravo, Theseus! Now that's a "shopping list" I'd gladly read every day. :)

As for the gender, I might go for "it" all the way, because the title of the sonnet is "Η Αγάπη" and "love" is not a feminine noun in English, is it? 

"She" and "her" are just fine for me as you've written them, Theseus, they paint a fine picture where it's to be painted, leaving the "it" for destiny in "if it is to come" (for that "que sera"). But then again I'm masculine, so I'd "wait for" a feminine to come. However, if it's to be gender neutral, to be used by both hims and hers (and himhers/herhims by the way), I'd go with the neutral everywhere.

A similar discussion I've just remembered, for Yeats' "When You Are Old" with Αγάπη and Έρωτας: http://lexilogia.gr/forum/showthrea...m-Butler-Yeats&p=112945&viewfull=1#post112945


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## Theseus (Sep 25, 2016)

*Love -- feminine or neuter*

Love can be both in English; here is a poem by Robert Louis Stevenson.

Let love go, if go she will.
Seek not, O fool, her wanton flight to stay.
Of all she gives and takes away
The best remains behind her still.

Or neuter:-
Shakespeare from a famous sonnet - 

Let me not to the marriage of true minds
Admit impediments. Love is not love
Which alters when it alteration finds,
Or bends with the remover to remove:
O no! it is an ever-fixed mark
That looks on tempests and is never shaken;
It is the star to every wandering bark,
Whose worth's unknown, although his height be taken.

So you pays your penny & you takes your choice...:wub:
PS or 'he' in Yeats!


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## daeman (Sep 25, 2016)

Theseus said:


> So you pays your penny & you takes your choice...:wub:
> PS or 'he' in Yeats!



Me likes plurality! Thanks, Theseus, that's a penny that just dropped. :)

I thought Yeats implied the God of Love in that poem (Eros/Cupid), to justify that "him" in the last line (ultimately himself, as they say) and combine it with "But one man loved the pilgrim soul in you" in the previous verse, judging from the capital initial of Love in the original edition.


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## Theseus (Sep 26, 2016)

Hahaha & thanks, Daeman. I see that 'Love' is 'it' in 1 Corinthians 13. But in context 'love' there surely isn't sexual attraction. It has been well summarised as a word whose meaning shifts with time of life:-

"When we're young, we think that love is a great wonderful attraction between parents and children. Love means we get things from those we love.
When we're young adults, we think that love may be some kind of gooey sexual attraction. Love means our constant urges must be satisfied.
When we're middle aged, we start to learn that love is all about self-sacrifice, and that includes many times when the person we are self-sacrificing for does not care less about our self-sacrifice for them.
When we are old, we learn that love is really about valuing the things of the next world infinitely more than the things of this world, and that heartfelt prayer to God is what love is all about.."

While I don't agree with all of the above, love in poetry often centres on romantic love with all its subtle associations. :devil::inno:


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