# Distomo



## Theseus (Aug 10, 2017)

I have just heard of the massacre at Distomo, near Delphi. It beggars belief that we went on a school trip on which Delphi was a must and I had never heard of this. We even intended to visit the church of Agios Loukas in Arahova. I am horrified. Is there anything I can read about it in Greek? This photograph expresses the emotional shock and heartbreak that most of the villagers had to suffer, even though apparently the massacre was not approved by the Nazi High Command:



The heartbreak, the numbness, the women whose children and menfolk had all been lost and the brutality that every age has had to face but some infinitely more than others--all enshrined in the face of this lovely Greek woman.


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## SBE (Aug 10, 2017)

If I remember well, because it's been years since I saw it, there was one episode on The World at War that was devoted to German and Bulgarian atrocities in Greece during WW2, so that might be a good general starting point. 
When I was growing up in Patras, the massacre of Kalavryta was all we knew, possibly because it was nearer. Distomo is something I first heard as a grown up. 
I found this one googling and it looks like what you are after.


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## Theseus (Aug 10, 2017)

Thanks so much, SBE. I hadn't heard of Kalavryta either. It seems that when school trips visit France & Germany, they visit the battlefields of WW1 or the gas camps in Poland. But in Greece it is the sites of Classical interest without a mention of the sufferings the Greeks endured in WW2. 
Looking at this woman's face again, I am reminded of a hymn about the head & face of the Crucified Christ & with him all suffering humanity:-
What sorrow mars thy grandeur? 
Can death thy bloom deflower? 
O countenance whose splendour 
the hosts of heaven adore!


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## SBE (Aug 10, 2017)

Oh, dear! Then you've probably not heard of Doxato, either. 
I once met someone whose father was one of the few survivors . He was 15 at the time and there was some commotion when the inhabitants were rounded up and he managed to escape and hide among the women. His son was telling me that he was treated with suspicion by the other survivors, there was too much why him and not my father/brother/ son. 
And a friend tells me of one aunt, now dead, who was a teenager in Doxato living with her father and brother, having already lost her mother to illness. She went to the main square, found her father's and brother's body, dragged them to the house, buried them in the yard and then went to some relatives in Thessaloniki, and spent most of her life on medication.


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## Theseus (Aug 11, 2017)

How ignorant I am of this side of Greek life! A classical education has proved invaluable to me in so many ways but there is a huge lacuna to be filled between the Greek history I have studied & the Greece of modern times. For you to have met someone whose father survived Doxato (& no! I had not heard of this tragedy either) & your friend's aunt who clearly carried this awful horror to her grave is a sober reminder to me of this vast other Greece which almost too late I have come to know & love.


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## SBE (Aug 11, 2017)

The father survived Kalavryta, not Doxato. I just realised I didn't write it clearly. The father of a fellow student of mine was a pupil in Xanthi during the war and was telling us about how Greek was banned at school and anyone not paying sufficient attention to the new language of instruction (Bulgarian) received severe beatings by the teachers. 

But don't forget Theseus that the people who lived through this never discussed it or at least never discussed it with their grandchildren and children. Add to that the 40-year rule in history, our school books stopped at 1939 and all I know about WW2 and Greece comes from the movies, literature, travel and whatever we learned about our second national holiday. I didn't even know that Patras was bombed heavily in 1940 until I read it in a book, although it makes sense- it was a port and industrial city. And I only found out that the gulf of Patras between Rion and Antirrion was full of mines that were cleared in 1945 by the Lowestoft minesweepers (RNPS), when I interpreted for a delegation from Rion, who went to Lowestoft for a town twinning. 

I believe that my maternal grandfather fought in the battle of Kalpaki (and others, of course), but my only indication for that is that when I was about 12 we went on a day trip at the museum in Kalpaki and when I returned I told him where I went and what it was like and he appeared to be emotional, which was not like him. My grandmother on the other hand claimed when I asked her (aged 7 or 8) that my grandfather was a cook in the army and did not fire a single bullet and was giving away bread to anyone who was hungry- an unlikely tale, maybe what she was thought a child ought to hear? Who knows. By the way my grandparents were around 25 in 1940 and already had two very young children.


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## Theseus (Aug 11, 2017)

Thanks for all these reminisces, SBE. My modern history was from the outbreak of the French Revolution to 1939. What had happened in WW2 was still relatively recent & not yet 'history'. The Holocaust wasn't even heard of. A conservative estimate of how many Greeks were massacred by the Nazis is about 85,000, which includes 60,000 Jews, Roma & those Christians who sheltered Jews. 
The reluctance of those who lived through the war to discuss their experiences I have encountered both with my own father & his contemporaries. Some years ago a neighbour who I had hitherto only passed the time of day with invited me into his house for a sherry. He showed me photographs secretly taken in the Japanese war camp where he had been imprisoned in 1943 so that the Thailand-Burma railway could be constructed. He had been nearly starved to death & he and several fellow prisoners were forced to work harder, some literally to death, on May 8 1945 (VE Day), since his Japanese captors mocked their German allies for surrendering. The following week he died. He had only spoken once about his experiences & that was to me. I must add that his wife had died several years before.
Thanks so much for your informative & moving stories. Please write in Greek :) in future. It's a real help for my 'reading comprehension' despite the odd misunderstanding & misinterpretation on my part!


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## SBE (Aug 11, 2017)

It is my understanding that the number of casualties in Greece during WW2 is well over 300,000. That number includes the civilians who died of famine during the occupation.


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## Theseus (Aug 11, 2017)

See the table in the article at https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties#Human_losses_by_country. The total sum there is given at 
507,000 to 807,000. My figure was based on massacres and extermination of the Greek Jews & is clearly wrong. The table I have given is more accurate than either of our estimates. 
The horror of Distomo is that after D-day the defeated Nazis, knowing that their doom was sealed, went on this kind of rampage of rape, infanticide & random massacre out of a sheer satiation of bloodlust. And the horror is compounded by the fact that these soldiers were absolutely normal people with families, wives & children. It has been observed that fanaticism of any kind is incompatible with any empathy.


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## SBE (Aug 12, 2017)

Wikipedia is not necessarily the most reliable source and the source cited next to this number is no longer accessible so it is best to err on the lower side. 
As for Distomo, it is one of several similar events- Wikipedia lists 15 massacres, some with a lot more victims- and the reason you hear about it more than others is because they have sued Germany for compensation.


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## Theseus (Aug 12, 2017)

I didn't know that Distomo had sued Germany for compensation; I have heard that the present financial hardships of Greece were due to the German Occupation in WWII , which reduced Greece to a poverty, of which she is still feeling the effects. But how true this is I don't know.


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## Earion (Aug 13, 2017)

For your education, Theseus.


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## SBE (Aug 13, 2017)

Theseus said:


> I have heard that the present financial hardships of Greece were due to the German Occupation in WWII , which reduced Greece to a poverty, of which she is still feeling the effects. But how true this is I don't know.



And of course, it's the Τουρκοκρατία and Greece not going through the Renaissance and Enlightenment. 
(Explanation of the above: traditionally every negative aspect of Greece, its people and the way it is organised is attributed to the above, not just by populist scholars who ought to know better, but by ordinary people who love shortcuts and simple explanations). 
Anyway, since 2010 Germany is held responsible for everything in Greece, it has even surpassed Turkey and Τουρκοκρατία as the root of all evil. This is a particularly popular view that has been taken up by populist politicians and a lot of ink has been wasted in the media to reinforce it. It has been toned down a bit in the past couple of years, because it is no longer useful in promoting certain political aims. At the height of the financial crisis it was everywhere. Even educated friends of mine living in Greece were taken by it and were suspicious of everything to do with Germany and believed that German people spend their days badmouthing Greece and the Greeks.

PS And because I'm a cynic, I think the only reason that we hear of Distomo is because they sued Germany. Once they managed to do that, they put themselves on the map and they became the next place where a politician had to be photographed.


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## Marinos (Aug 13, 2017)

SBE said:


> And of course, it's the Τουρκοκρατία and Greece not going through the Renaissance and Enlightenment.
> (Explanation of the above: traditionally every negative aspect of Greece, its people and the way it is organised is attributed to the above, not just by populist scholars who ought to know better, but by ordinary people who love shortcuts and simple explanations).
> Anyway, since 2010 Germany is held responsible for everything in Greece, it has even surpassed Turkey and Τουρκοκρατία as the root of all evil. This is a particularly popular view that has been taken up by populist politicians and a lot of ink has been wasted in the media to reinforce it. It has been toned down a bit in the past couple of years, because it is no longer useful in promoting certain political aims. At the height of the financial crisis it was everywhere. Even educated friends of mine living in Greece were taken by it and were suspicious of everything to do with Germany and believed that German people spend their days badmouthing Greece and the Greeks.
> 
> PS And because I'm a cynic, I think the only reason that we hear of Distomo is because they sued Germany. Once they managed to do that, they put themselves on the map and they became the next place where a politician had to be photographed.



I have to (slightly) disagree with some of these assertions. If we accept that "populists" are the ones blaming Germany, then we have to admit that the attribution of everything negative to "Greece not going through the Renaissance and Enlightenment" comes from the other extreme, those blaming "the Greek mentality" and "populism" for everything. A theory that was first formulated by well-esteemed political scientists and historians, now is a commonplace in the right-center wing of the "serious" Greek press.
As for blaming Germany, here also there are lots of nuances, some of them not so easy to dismiss as "populism". Not on the basis of any conspiracy theory or "anti-Greek sentiments"; just based on the structural problems of the EU and the way deficits of some countries become the surpluses of others, for instance.


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## drsiebenmal (Aug 13, 2017)

Marinos said:


> [...]and the way deficits of some countries become the surpluses of others, for instance.


Partially true; the EU is not a closed economic system.

But anyway, why are we not able to turn our deficits to surpluses and to the deficits of others? Why can we not produce anything of intrinsic value and high international quality in quantities that could make a significant difference? 

(And, btw, Germany's surpluses come mostly from its commerce partners outside the EU: USA, Japan, China and other financial giants; they don't build their surpluses by selling cars and TVs to Greece, though, of course, every euro surely counts...)


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## SBE (Aug 14, 2017)

Μου φαίνεται ότι παρεξηγήθηκε αυτό που έγραψα γιατι το έγραψα στα αγγλικά. Οπότε ας ξεκινήσω με το απλό και κατανοητό: σιγά Μαρίνο, δε σου θίξαμε τον πολιτικό χώρο που έτρεξες να τον υπερασπιστείς (και λέω χώρο γιατί άμα πω κομμα ή παράταξη θα πεις ότι δεν αναφερόσουν σε συγκεκριμένο κόμμα ή παράταξη και θα κάνουμε απλά κύκλους). Να θυμίσω επίσης ότι είμαστε όλοι πλέον εκτός θέματος. Οπότε...

ΕΓΩ δεν είπα ότι οι Χ λένε ότι δεν περάσαμε διαφωτισμό κι οι Υ (όπου Υ= -Χ) λένε ότι φταίνει οι Γερμανοί για όλα. Γερμανοφοβία και από το άλλο που δεν ξέρω πώς το λένε, ας πούμε διαφωτισμομανία, έχω δει από όλους και κατά τη γνώμη μου και τα δύο είναι λαϊκίστικα (ή αν προτιμάς σκέτα λαϊκά με όλα τα αρνητικά που μπορεί να έχει η λέξη) και τα πιστέυουν- συχνά ταυτόχρονα- κυρίως οι άνθρωποι που αναζητούν απλές ερμηνείες για πολύπλοκα ζητήματα. Δηλαδή όλοι οι Έλληνες σχεδόν. 

ΥΓ Παρεμπιπτόντως, διαφωτισμό δεν πέρασε κι η Ιαπωνία...


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## drsiebenmal (Aug 14, 2017)

SBE, αφού δεν είμαστε στο ΦΒ και υποτίθεται ότι έχουμε κατακτήσει ένα διαφορετικό επίπεδο και κώδικα συζήτησης, θα επισημάνω ότι η πρώτη σου παράγραφος πιο πάνω (στο #16) είναι προσβλητική χωρίς λόγο και αιτία (κτγμ). Δεύτερον, τον «διαφωτισμό» της τον πέρασε και η Ιαπωνία (αν δεν έτυχε να το γνωρίζεις, πράγμα που δεν είναι κακό, διάβασε για τη δυναστεία Μέιτζι). Σου δίνω τον λίνκο (στα αγγλικά, φυσικά). Τρίτον, εσύ έβαλες τουρκοκρατίες και διαφωτισμούς στο παιχνίδι. Τέταρτον... ουφ, βαρετό γίνεται.


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## Marinos (Aug 14, 2017)

Απ' ό,τι φαίνεται, ούτε εγώ γράφω καθαρά στα αγγλικά. Δεν έχω καμιά διάθεση να αναζωπυρώσω ορισμένες κουβέντες, παρατήρησα μόνο ότι το να πετάμε ό,τι άποψη μας φαίνεται "εύκολη" στον αμόρφωτο λαουτζίκο είναι λίγο παραπλανητικό. Όπως στο καφενείο λέγανε πάντα "δεν υπάρχει κράτος" και "στο Ελλαδιστάν δεν θα γίνουμε ποτέ Ευρώπη" και "έξω δεν περνάν αυτά", έτσι και η αντίστοιχη λόγια άποψη ("δεν περάσαμε Διαφωτισμό", "η Ελλάδα δεν είχε ποτέ παραγωγική αστική τάξη", "ακόμα πληρώνουμε τις παθογένειες της Τουρκοκρατίας") εκφράζεται χρόνια τώρα σε κείμενα του Βερέμη ή άλλων σοβαρών ιστορικών (δεν λέω κάποια ονόματα που μου ήρθαν στο μυαλό γιατί δεν προλαβαίνω να βεβαιωθώ) και στις στήλες της Καθημερινής ή του Βήματος ξερωγώ. Αντίστοιχα, η οπωσδήποτε εντελώς φοβική και απλοϊκή αντίδραση "οι Γερμανοί μας κατατρέχουν επειδή έχουν κόμπλεξ από τον πόλεμο (π.χ.)" ακούγεται στα καφενεία (εννοείται πολύ συχνότερα, πια, από την Τουρκοκρατία), θα είναι όμως άδικο να απορρίψει κανείς ως λαϊκιστικές προσεγγίσεις όπως π.χ. του Χατζηιωσήφ (1, 2) που αν μη τι άλλο δεν χαϊδεύουν κανένα αυτί, κτγμ.

Κατά τα άλλα: Η ΕΕ μπορεί να μην είναι ακριβώς κλειστό σύστημα, η ευρωζώνη όμως είναι κάπως περισσότερο. Και ο διαφωτισμός των Μέιτζι δεν διαφέρει πολύ από εκείνον του Τανζιμάτ... (Παραδέχομαι επίσης ότι όσον αφορά το φταίξιμο της Τουρκοκρατίας έχω κάποιες, χμ, επαγγελματικές ευαισθησίες :) Έχω καιρό όμως να κάνω αυτή την κουβέντα.)


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## SBE (Aug 14, 2017)

Δόκτορα, δεν θεωρώ ότι το ύφος μου έχει κάτι το ιδιαίτερο και λέω αυτό ακριβώς που αντιλήφθηκα. Επισης, σοφιστείες τα περί Ιαπωνίας, αφου όταν λέμε Διαφωτισμός ξέρουμε όλοι σε τί αναφερόμαστε. 
Τώρα, έχουμε ξεφύγει τελείως μου φαίνεται. Δεν αντιλαμβάνομαι πώς προέκυψε ότι το Θησέας είναι αμόρφωτος λαουτζίκος στον οποίο πέταξα μια ευκολη άποψη. Είμαι σίγουρη ότι ο Θησέας μπορεί να καταλάβει ότι ο καθένας μας δίνει διαφορετικές ερμηνείες στο κάθε ζήτημα ανάλογα με τις εμπειρίες του. 
Πίσω στο θέμα, όταν αναφερόμουν στα περί διαφωτισμού κλπ δεν είχα υπόψη μου κανέναν ιστορικό ή αρθρογράφο. Τις συγκεκριμένες απόψεις και τις παραλλαγές τους τις ξέρω γιατί τις ακούω εδώ κι εκεί απο τότε που θυμάμαι τον εαυτό μου. Όταν πήγαινα στο δημοτικό και άκουγα να λένε οι μεγάλοι περί Τουρκοκρατίας που μας άφησε το Χ ή το Υ κουσούρι δε νομίζω να το είχαν διαβάσει στην Καθημερινή ή το Βήμα, ούτε νομίζω να ξέρανε τον Βερεμή. Αντίστοιχα τα περί Γερμανών τα ακούω τα τελευταία χρόνια, όχι γιατί κυκλοφόρησε κάποια μελέτη κάποιου ιστορικού, αλλά γιατί ήταν μια εύκολη απάντηση σε δύσκολα ερωτήματα και την υιοθέτησαν σχεδόν όλοι.


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## Marinos (Aug 14, 2017)

SBE, εγώ εξαρχής δεν καταλαβαίνω γιατί αρπάχτηκες. Τζάμπα έβαλα το slightly πριν πατήσω το κουμπί. Είπα ότι το να αποδίδουμε όλα τα κακά στην Τουρκοκρατία (μ' άλλα λόγια στο ότι "δεν είμαστε Ευρώπη") δεν είναι μόνο καφενειακή ή "λαϊκιστική" άποψη, ίσα-ίσα είναι μια από τις πιο διαδεδομένες (και μάλιστα, δεν θα το αρνηθώ, από τις πιο πειστικές κι ας μην την ενστερνίζομαι) ερμηνείες της ελληνικής πραγματικότητας στους πλέον σοβαρούς κύκλους. 
_Ερμηνευτική σημείωση_: "να πετάμε ό,τι άποψη μας φαίνεται "εύκολη" στον αμόρφωτο λαουτζίκο" --> "να αποδίδουμε όποια άποψη μας φαίνεται εύκολη σε populist scholars [and] ordinary people who love shortcuts and simple explanations".


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## drsiebenmal (Aug 14, 2017)

Marinos said:


> Κατά τα άλλα: Η ΕΕ μπορεί να μην είναι ακριβώς κλειστό σύστημα, η ευρωζώνη όμως είναι κάπως περισσότερο. Και ο διαφωτισμός των Μέιτζι δεν διαφέρει πολύ από εκείνον του Τανζιμάτ... (Παραδέχομαι επίσης ότι όσον αφορά το φταίξιμο της Τουρκοκρατίας έχω κάποιες, χμ, επαγγελματικές ευαισθησίες :)



Τρία ενδιαφέροντα θέματα σε τρεις αράδες, ίσως τα συζητήσουμε κάποτε με κάποια καλή αφορμή. Διατυπώνω με τίτλους τον προβληματισμό μου:

(1) _Η ΕΕ μπορεί να μην είναι ακριβώς κλειστό σύστημα, η ευρωζώνη όμως είναι κάπως περισσότερο._
Πόσο; Και σε τι εμποδίζει την Ελλάδα να αναδειχτεί σε «σημαντική περιφερειακή οικονομική δύναμη»;

(2) _Και ο διαφωτισμός των Μέιτζι δεν διαφέρει πολύ από εκείνον του Τανζιμάτ..._
Ενδιαφέρων και εύλογος παραλληλισμός. Ενδιαφέρον επίσης ότι και οι δύο οδήγησαν σε εθνικιστικά κινήματα και μιλιταριστική πολιτική. Αντίθετα, ο ευρωπαϊκός διαφωτισμός δεν οδήγησε σε εθνικιστικές πολιτικές και πολεμικές αναμετρήσεις (εντάξει, αστειεύομαι...)

(3) _Παραδέχομαι επίσης ότι όσον αφορά το φταίξιμο της Τουρκοκρατίας[...]_
Αυτό ξέρω και πότε θα το συζητήσουμε. Όταν κυκλοφορήσει μια υπό έκδοση μετάφρασή μου, με βάση την οποία θα μπορέσω να διατυπώσω ανάγλυφα τον ισχυρισμό μου για το πού ακριβώς (νομίζω εγώ, πια) ότι μάς έφταιξε η Τουρκοκρατία. :)


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## Theseus (Aug 14, 2017)

I am noting these varied views on the state of Greece now from colleagues who know much more than I do. Suffice it to make three points:-
1) from the distinguished novelist Dame Hilary Mantel, who.claimed that history is only ever the best we can do based on the evidence that is left.
She stressed that history is always imperfect. While there may be some facts and figures from the past that we know to be indisputably accurate, there will also always be many more gaps, errors and unreliable witnesses. Mantel says history is “what’s left in the sieve when the centuries have run through it – a few stones, scraps of writing, scraps of cloth.”I respect colleagues on Lexilogia enough to realise that the quotation I have just cited leaves a large amount of room for many views. I am not talking of bigots or the self-educated who have learned no methodology to approach the past but educated people.
2) I always try not to break the first principle of Aristotle's canon of rhetoric to demand in every enquiry that degree of certainty which the subject matter allows. (And not on your life to pretend that you see further than you do.)
3) Most educated people accept that the Greeks have taught the British democracy. Not so according to a recent book by a scholar at Durham University. It was more because of the translation of the Bible into English, he argues persuasively, which made each person his own authority & thus equal to the scholars who had hitherto claimed it as their preserve. He traces the huge upheavals in social & cultural movements in Britain to that one 'fact'.

It seems that perceptions of history become themselves part of the history that is perceived.

Perhaps most of this discussion, where, inadvertently, I seem to have opened a Pandora's box, can be moved to the For political animals only section of Lexilogia & the discussion of the massacre at Distomo & other places in Greece remain here?


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