# παιδί του κομματικού σωλήνα = a product of the party machine / apparatus



## nickel (Mar 2, 2014)

Είναι παιδί του κομματικού σωλήνα...
Δεν ξέρω πότε το πρωτοείπαμε, ούτε για ποιον.
Δεν ξέρω αν έχει επηρεαστεί από αντίστοιχη ξενική έκφραση (εκτός, βέβαια, από τα _test tube babies_).
Σκέφτηκα για απόδοση: *a product of the party apparatus*.
Αλλά βαρέθηκα να σκεφτώ παρακάτω. Τι στο καλό το 'χουμε το φόρουμ...


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## cougr (Mar 2, 2014)

Το μόνο άλλο που μπορώ να σκεφτώ είναι το _child/son of the party machine_.


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## pontios (Mar 3, 2014)

I'm not sure how any of these stack up ... but, anyway:
a product of party politics 
conceived in a political laboratory
a love child of party politics
engineered to be a party politician
a test-tube party politician


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## nickel (Mar 5, 2014)

Ωραία ποικιλία, pontios!

Παρεμφερής διατύπωση του Χ. Γιανναρά: _προϊόντα της κομματικής κουζίνας_.


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## Severus (Mar 27, 2014)

You might as well translate it as _political greenhorn_ given that *ο κομματικός σωλήνας* is a manipulation tactics used at the grassroot level of a party.


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## Severus (Mar 27, 2014)

I have just stumbled upon *political sock puppet*, which is not an exact translation per se, but it has some relation to _παιδιά του κομματικού σωλήνα_. To be honest, this term reminds me of the Greek word _φερέφωνο_.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Political%20Sock%20Puppet


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## nickel (Mar 27, 2014)

Είναι ζήτημα έμφασης η επιλογή αυτών των όρων. Όταν λέμε για κάποιον ότι είναι παιδί του κομματικού σωλήνα, εννοούμε ότι δεν έχει γίνει γνωστός από την επαγγελματική του σταδιοδρομία. Όταν λέμε για κάποιον ότι είναι _political greenhorn_, εννοούμε ότι πρόκειται για φιντάνι, ότι δεν είναι κανένας ψημένος πολιτικός. Το _political sock puppet_ υπονοεί ότι είναι ενεργούμενο και του κινούν τα νήματα. _Μαριονέτα, αχυράνθρωπος, ανδρείκελο_, πιο βαριές λέξεις από το _φερέφωνο_.


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## Severus (Mar 27, 2014)

Το _greenhorn_ ναι μεν εμπεριέχει την έννοια της απειρίας, αλλά συνάμα υποδηλώνει την έλλειψη βούλησης, και την ευκολία στην εξαπάτηση του ατόμου που χαρακτηρίζεται ως _greenhorn_. Όσον αφορά τον ορισμό του όρου κομματικός σωλήνας, ερείδομαι στο ακόλουθο άρθρο, καθώς δεν βρήκα κάτι συγκεκριμένο. Πιστεύω πάντως πως ο κομματικός σωλήνας έχει να κάνει με την έλλειψη αξιοκρατίας στην ανάδειξη κομματικών αρχηγών ή ηγετικών στελεχών καθώς επίσης και με τη βάση του κόμματος, η οποία ψηφίζει αυτά τα άτομα χωρίς να αναλύσουν και να αξιολογήσουν την πολιτική τους δεινότητα. Ως παιδί του πολιτικού σωλήνα θα όριζα άτομο το οποίο αναλαμβάνει ένα πόστο στο κόμμα ούτως ώστε να προπαγανδίσει μασημένη, κονσερβοποιημένη τροφή, χωρίς δικαίωμα ή δυνατότητα χάραξης δικής του πολιτικής πορείας και το οποίο χαίρει δημοτικότητας εντός του κομματικού του κύκλου, καθώς οι kingmakers του φρόντισαν να παραπλανήσουν τη βάση στο να πιστεύει ότι το εν λόγω άτομο διαθέτει την πολιτική αρετή που χρειάζεται. Κατά επέκτασιν, παιδί του πολιτικού σωλήνα θα μπορούσε να θεωρηθεί κάθε παιδί του κομματικού συστήματος, που διορίζεται σε θέσεις λόγω της κομματικής του τοποθέτησης και το οποίο ακολουθεί ένα συγκεκριμένο κόμμα για την εξασφάλιση μιας θέσης εργασίας ή ηγεσίας. 

http://indobserver.blogspot.de/2014/03/blog-post_1262.html


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## cougr (Apr 6, 2022)

nickel said:


> ...παιδί του κομματικού σωλήνα...


Τελικά, πώς ορίζεται συτό;


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## nickel (Apr 6, 2022)

Πώς ορίζεται το «παιδί του κομματικού σωλήνα»; Θα έλεγα ως το άτομο που ωριμάζει πολιτικά και γίνεται ευρύτερα γνωστό μέσα από τις δράσεις ενός κόμματος και όχι από την αυτόνομη πορεία του π.χ. στον επαγγελματικό βίο.


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## cougr (Apr 7, 2022)

Ωραία. Έτσι το αντιλαμβανόμουν και εγώ αλλά δεν ήμουν σίγουρος. Οπότε οι μεταφράσεις που ήδη έχουν προταθεί στο #1 και #2, και παραλλαγές αυτών, νομίζω είναι οι πλησιέστερες που υπάρχουν στην αγγλική. Ήτοι:
- product of the party machine/ apparatus 
- product of the political machine
- party/political machine product


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## pontios (Apr 7, 2022)

μηπως παιζει και το "γέννημα-θρέμμα" της αριστερας, κτλ ;

A "born and bred" left-wing politician, fascist, etc... ?

*born and bred*

phrase of born


*by birth and upbringing*, especially with reference to someone considered a *typical product* of a place.
"he was a Cambridge man born and bred"


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## nickel (Apr 7, 2022)

pontios said:


> μηπως παιζει και το "γέννημα-θρέμμα" της αριστερας, κτλ ;
> 
> A "born and bred" left-wing politician, fascist, etc... ?


Όχι, κάνεις μεταφραστικό άλμα. Παιδιά του κομματικού σωλήνα υπάρχουν σε όλα τα κόμματα.


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## pontios (Apr 7, 2022)

nickel ...
What you suggested in your opening post #1 ... "*a product of the party apparatus*" was basically it.
We've just been rehashing and paraphrasing it since (I said "product of party politics"in my post #3).

But what I was getting at in #12 was that, perhaps, there might be another way to look at this?
παιδί του κομματικού σωλήνα = _γέννημα θρέμμα_ του _κομματικού_ μηχανισμού ; (perhaps?)​I'll leave the english translation - it's not straight-forward using"born and bred"(unless you use specific examples - that's why I've used ... "a born and bred" left-wing politician/fascist/democrat, republican, etc...).

I wanted to get away from "a product of" ... but:
How would you translate .... _γέννημα θρέμμα_ του _κομματικού_ μηχανισμού? (assuming it's right?)
_born and bred into party politics_, or _reared in party politics_, maybe (but, then, I'd be omitting the "party apparatus" ... το σωληνα?).


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## cougr (Apr 7, 2022)

pontios said:


> How would you translate .... _γέννημα θρέμμα_ του _κομματικού_ μηχανισμού? (assuming it's right?)
> _born and bred into party politics_, or _reared in party politics_, maybe (but, then, I'd be omitting the "party apparatus" ... το σωληνα?).


The typical expression for this is "born and raised in the party machine" or more simply, "raised in the party machine". That's not to say that terms such as " born and bred" and "reared" couldn't be used.


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## pontios (Apr 7, 2022)

cougr said:


> The typical expression for this is "born and raised in the party machine" or more simply, "raised in the party machine".


I was thinking of something like: _"a rearling of the party apparatus"_? ... but it's a bit out there (mid 19th Century English).

where _γέννημα θρέμμα = rearling._


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## cougr (Apr 7, 2022)

pontios said:


> ...but it's a bit out there (mid 19th Century English).


Definitely seems that long since I last came across it.


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## pontios (Apr 8, 2022)

nickel said:


> Πώς ορίζεται το «παιδί του κομματικού σωλήνα»; Θα έλεγα ως το άτομο που ωριμάζει πολιτικά και γίνεται ευρύτερα γνωστό μέσα από τις δράσεις ενός κόμματος και όχι από την αυτόνομη πορεία του π.χ. στον επαγγελματικό βίο.


(.... why did you dredge up this thread, cougr?) 
"σωλήνα" is sounding more and more like a "bubble" or an echo chamber ... and "παιδί του κομματικού σωλήνα" a "child" or a person who's "grown up" or whose career is taking place and flourishing (perhaps?) in a political bubble, a partisan bubble isolated and out of touch with the real world and the problems that everyday people face. A child of the political bubble or the partisan bubble (I'm thinking of the Seinfeld Bubble Boy episode, as I write this).

A career politician who's out of touch with the voters?


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## nickel (Apr 8, 2022)

Στον τίτλο έβαλα το αγγλικό με τη μεγαλύτερη αντιστοιχία και τα περισσότερα ευρήματα σε βιβλία.
a product of the party machine
a product of the party apparatus


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## pontios (Apr 8, 2022)

We all agree with the "a product of the party machine/apparatus" (we've all already agreed with this early on) ... but how does this person, this "(end) product" behave? How would we describe and identify this person?

Could we describe them as a career politician who cares more about themselves (being in power, etc) and scoring political points for their own party than about good governance, and providing good long-term policies? Someone who has lost touch with the real world and the man in the street (and couldn't care less for them - only pretending that they do)?
Someone who is more or less in it for themselves and their party?
career politician​A person who approaches politics as a profession. A person who's in politics to make money and/or to have power.
For them, making the world a better place is secondary or immaterial


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## Palavra (Apr 8, 2022)

career politician = επαγγελματίας πολιτικός ή πολιτικός καριέρας


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## cougr (Apr 8, 2022)

Ξέχασα να αναφέρω ότι σε μερικά μέρη της Αφρικής και της Ασίας χρησιμοποιούν τον όρο "test tube politician" αλλά δεν μπορώ να εξακριβώσω άν υπάρχει κάποια αντιστοιχία με την έννοια του όρου "παιδί του κομματικού σωλήνα". Πάντως, όπως και να 'χει, ούτε δόκιμος είναι ούτε κυκλοφορεί ευρέως.

@pontios
In a very narrow sense you could say that they are career politicians - given that the entirety of their employment has been within the political scene - but the two are separate concepts. One doesn't entirely capture the description or essence of the other.


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## pontios (Apr 9, 2022)

It's a difficult and elusive concept to grasp, cougr.
You could make a case for "test-tube politician" as an aid to understanding the term, at least (I included this idea in my post #3), or"inbred" partisan/politician, perhaps.
So, someone who (perhaps) has been "bred" or "cloned"/"genetically imprinted" to serve their party and its interests (to keep it and themselves in power, first and foremost) - someone who lacks initiative and integrity (to honourably serve their country), and/or any autonomy.
It has negative connotations - this is one thing we can say for sure.

I think there is a crossover with career politician whenever career politician has this negativity attached to it (where it is viewed as self-serving, etc).


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## cougr (Apr 9, 2022)

pontios said:


> ...to serve their party and its interests (to keep it and themselves in power, first and foremost) - someone who lacks initiative and integrity (to honourably serve their country), and/or any autonomy.


That just about defines all politicians, full stop.


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## pontios (Apr 12, 2022)

"They have obviously fashioned their behavior, their entire approach, after certain role models whose footsteps they walk in, as the process of the “political test-tube baby” remains intact (and unrepentant, we would add)."









Political test-tube babies | eKathimerini.com


What traits do political officials of the new generation share? This was not the subject of a recent television debate on the name talks with the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM), yet it went a long way toward answering the question.




www.ekathimerini.com


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## pontios (Apr 12, 2022)

putting the test-tube/lab apparatus aside ...
_political clone?
political clone of the party_? _ political clone of the leader (or mentor)?_

for example: _political clone_ of the Democrat Party? _political clone _of President Barack Obama?
or just ...._ clone _of the Democrat Party, Republican Party _clone_, _clone_ of Barack Obama, a Barack Obama _clone_, etc...

the process of _political cloning_ continues (whereas lexilogia welcomes free thinkers and new ideas).


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## cougr (Apr 12, 2022)

That's _πολιτικός/κομματικός κλώνος _or _κλώνος του τάδε_. 

Παρά το γεγονός ότι μπορεί να υπάρχει κάποια επικάλυψη μεταξύ των όρων, άλλο οι παραπάνω όροι και άλλο τα παιδιά του κομματικού σωλήνα.


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## pontios (Apr 12, 2022)

In English, I think _clone _works just fine.
It is an_ elastic-enough _term to encompass the concept (IMHO).


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## Palavra (Apr 12, 2022)

cougr said:


> Ξέχασα να αναφέρω ότι σε μερικά μέρη της Αφρικής και της Ασίας χρησιμοποιούν τον όρο "test tube politician" αλλά δεν μπορώ να εξακριβώσω άν υπάρχει κάποια αντιστοιχία με την έννοια του όρου "παιδί του κομματικού σωλήνα". Πάντως, όπως και να 'χει, ούτε δόκιμος είναι ούτε κυκλοφορεί ευρέως.
> 
> @pontios
> In a very narrow sense you could say that they are career politicians - given that the entirety of their employment has been within the political scene - but the two are separate concepts. One doesn't entirely capture the description or essence of the other.


Ακριβώς. Παιδί του κομματικού σωλήνα είναι κάποιος που από μικρός ήταν στη νεολαία του κόμματος, πρωτοστατούσε σε μαθητικές και αργότερα φοιτητικές κινητοποιήσεις, μετά έβαλε υποψηφιότητα σε μικρής εμβέλειας εκλογές και μετά στις εθνικές. Επαγγελματίας πολιτικός είναι κάποιος που μπορεί να ήταν από μικρός σε κάποια νεολαία, μετά πήγε σε ένα μικρό κόμμα, μετά σε ένα μεγάλο, και μετά σε ένα άλλο μεγάλο, ασχέτως αν αυτά τα τρία κόμματα είχαν κάποια σχέση μεταξύ τους ή όχι.


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## Palavra (Apr 12, 2022)

pontios said:


> In English, I think _clone _works just fine.
> It is an_ elastic-enough _term to encompass the concept (IMHO).


Δεν ισχύει αυτό. Όπως εξηγεί ο cougr, πρόκειται για δύο διαφορετικές έννοιες που αποδίδονται διαφορετικά στα ελληνικά.


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## pontios (Apr 13, 2022)

There is no term that encapsulates this very specific concept in English.
And, I note that Palavra used 100 words or so to describe what the term (this opaque term) means in Greek.
(Political test tube baby/politician brings up a small number of google search results from Pakistani and African sources).

So we may need to be more accommodating.

Put it this way...
The following term I just "hatched" up now in my head ... "a hatchling from the party incubator" would be closer to the concept.

I think "product of the party machine" doesn't and can't convey what this term means or is getting at.

_cloning_ at least matches with the "fashioning of behaviour after certain role models," and following the footsteps of those in the past, etc...
The idea that you are getting more of the same, a party that is bereft of new ideas, staid in its ways, defending old ideas.

I think "cloning" does it better, and is more readily understood in English.


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## cougr (Apr 13, 2022)

pontios said:


> I think "product of the party machine" doesn't and can't convey what this term means or is getting at.


I think that's highly debatable.
The above term Is typically used to refer to a person who in the main, whilst still a youth, joined a political party at ground/ grassroots level and who worked their way through the ranks, having been securely employed by the party in some capacity or other until being elected or having nominated for election. They have negligible or no employment experience outside that of the party and having worked so long in the closed environment* and insular confines of the party, have in the process been enculturated in the norms, values and ideologies of the party. Hence, presumably, they lack the capacity to think independently and to relate or empathise with the needs and concerns of the average citizen who is required to eck out a living in the cut and thrust of the real world. Which, basically, in a nutshell, captures the basic gist of the term "παιδί του κομματικού σωλήνα". Being a clone doesn't quite capture all this and can have connotations far removed from those of the Greek term under discussion.

*that's the analogy to the test tube ie. the closed and controlled environment in which cell cultures are grown.

PS: I'm hoping this to be my last post on the topic. I think we've overstretched it a bit.


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## Palavra (Apr 13, 2022)

pontios said:


> I think "cloning" does it better, and is more readily understood in English.


It does not. Cougr perfectly explains the concept above. In my opinion, the term that we have in the title is the best there is.


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## Severus (Apr 13, 2022)

ίσως: grown within the confines of party politics.

Party politics: 
politics based on strict adherence to the policies and principles of a political party regardless of the public interest; partisan loyalism.








Definition of party politics | Dictionary.com


Party politics definition, politics based on strict adherence to the policies and principles of a political party regardless of the public interest; partisan loyalism. See more.




www.dictionary.com


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## pontios (Apr 14, 2022)

Palavra said:


> It does not. Cougr perfectly explains the concept above. In my opinion, the term that we have in the title is the best there is.


Is there an "unlike" button?
I actually agreed with that term in my post #3 ... what I was getting at is there might be another "more readily understood" way to express this.

Severus is trying to do just that ... and is using the term "party politics" I notice, which you'll see I've used way back in my post #3.

I only really started understanding the term from the Kathimerini article I posted, and I'm sure it helped cougr and others better understand the term, too.

So, we're all on the same side here, I hope - although, it doesn't always feel this way.


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## Palavra (Apr 14, 2022)

So first you want to unlike my post and then you express a wish that we are all on the same side "although it doesn't always feel this way"?

This is not Facebook and most of us are professionals in the language industry. I believe we can all agree that we have already spent enough time trying to explain which options work and which do not. I think this is it for this thread.


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