# Ο κόκκινος φάκελος



## Theseus (Aug 7, 2018)

Ποιος η τι είναι 'ο κόκκινος φάκελος´ και τι σχέση έχει με τη επονείδιστη Μακρόνησο;


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## SBE (Aug 7, 2018)

Εμένα δεν μου λέει τίποτα αυτό που ρωτάς χωρίς περισσότερες πληροφορίες (πέρα ίσως απο το ότι το κόκκινο είναι το χρώμα που έχει ταυτιστεί με το ΚΚΕ).


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## Theseus (Aug 7, 2018)

Βλέπε :- http://kokkinosfakelos.blogspot.com/2013/11/blog-post_23.html. 
&
http://kokkinosfakelos.blogspot.com/2011/06/blog-post_8466.html.


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## SBE (Aug 8, 2018)

Επομένως η αρχική σου ερώτηση δεν αναφέρεται σε κάποιον φάκελλο, αλλά στην ουσία ρωτάς γιατί ο μπλόγκερ αυτός επέλεξε αυτό το ψευδώνυμο και τι σχέση έχει (ο μπλόγκερ) με τη Μακρόνησο.
Για το δεύτερο η απάντηση είναι ότι δεν μπορούμε να ξέρουμε αν δεν το αναφέρει κάπου ο ίδιος —και πρόκειται για μπλογκ συλλογικό, οπότε δεν είναι ένας ο συγγραφέας, οπότε τι σχεση έχουν όλοι αυτοί; Μάλλον τίποτα παραπανω από ενδιαφέρον για το αντικείμενο του μπλογκ, που αναγράφεται φαρδιά-πλατιά: Ιστορικό, πολιτικό Blog για την ιστορία της διεθνούς και ελληνικής αριστεράς.
Όσο για το όνομα, φάκελλος είναι εκτός από αυτό που βάζουμε τα γράμματα και το χαρτοφυλάκιο (που βάζεις διάφορα ανάκατα) και το ντοσιέ. Επομένως στην ουσία λένε το μπλογκ τους χαρτοφυλάκιο, portfolio of documents and articles.
Γιατί κόκκινο; Ε, νομίζω είναι προφανές, because it's about the Reds.


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## Theseus (Aug 8, 2018)

Σ' ευχαριστώ, ΣΒΕ. Προφανώς ο κόκκινος φάκελος κι έκανε άρθρο για τη Μακρόνησο. Προπαθω επίσης να κατάλαβω την πολυπλοκότητα της ελληνικής πολιτικής. Για παράδειγμα, συχνά συναντώ άρθρα σαν αυτό για την Ελλάδα:-
Definitely the worst country in Europe, potentially on the planet, a drain on the EU where the people feel they are all 'victims'. Government doesn't know how to run a country, people retiring on full pensions at age 25 (well maybe 55). Men think they are something special, even though they are in their 30's working as waiters and women are just lazy and rude. Food is like slop but they greedily gorge constantly which is why they have one of the fattest populations in the world.
People almost have a sense of entitlement here and loathe tourists even though tourism is probably the only thing that funds and props the country up. The economy was clearly going to collapse but no one seemed to care until it did, when they came begging Europe with the hands out.
Should have kicked them out the EU and left them to rot and their pool of hummus and poorly planned pensions schemes.

Εξάλλου, έχω παρατηρήσει ότι κάποιοι συμφορουμίτες είναι πολύ ευαίσθητοι σε θέματα που σ' εμένα τουλάχιστο φαίνονται μόνο αόριστα πολιτικά. Έχει στη σύγχρονη Ελλάδα την ελευθερία του λόγου κατά τη βρεταννικη εννοια του όρου;


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## drsiebenmal (Aug 9, 2018)

OK, Theseus, I really hate it when you post texts like that from who knows what dubious source, but, just to make a point, let me try to show you how "articles" like this are understood by some Greeks:

[The UK] is definitely the worst country in Europe, potentially on the planet. Since 1973 it's a burden on the EU, trying to always have its say but still, its people feel they are all 'victims' and therefore decided to commit suicide by "Brexit". Government doesn't know how to run the country and depends mostly on private firms to do it, people working as slaves and never retiring, having nothing to do but getting wet in the cold and the never-ending rains. Men think they are something special, even though they are in their 30's working as waiters and women are just lazy and rude, working as hairdressers. They both wait to go for their vacations to Crete, Rhodes, Corfu and other places to drink until they fall dead. Sometimes, literally. Food is like slop and they can't eat it which is why they have one of the unhealthiest populations in the world and they even had to establish a notoriously bad working special system, depending on Greek and other foreign doctors, to take care of their health.

People almost have a sense of entitlement here and loathe Europeans even though Europe is probably their biggest commercial partner and client for their banking system, which makes money by selling money and thin air. Still, the economy is not going to collapse (who wants another pariah state with nukes) but no one seems to understand what's it all about until they will come begging Europe with the hands out, asking to be just a simple member again, no special privileges whatsoever.

Still, we should have them, their pathetic island and their old lady with her funny hats in the EU, if just to hear their funny accent trying to speak a funny language with which they somehow managed to infest the whole world and let them rot with their fish and chips and non-existent pensions schemes.

I put it in a shitty color to show my real opinion for texts like this, full of unfair generalisations. Of course anyone is allowed his free speech in Greece, but shit remains shit even when freely spoken. And we have had are own production of fake news and misinterpretations in gigatons in the last years. So, try to understand that some people are tired of reading or hearing this bull.

I want to apologize if I have been a little intense. It's nothing personal. But yes, Greeks do get fiery talking about politics, especially in the years of the Crisis.


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## SBE (Aug 9, 2018)

Θησέα, αυτό που παραθέτεις (άρθρο για την Ελλάδα) δεν είναι άρθρο, είναι μάλλον κάτι που έγραψε κάποιος Άγγλος στα σχόλια της Ντέιλι Μέιλ. Που ξέρω ότι είναι Άγγλος και ότι δεν ξέρει και πολλά για την Ελλάδα; Μα πρώτα πρώτα γιατί αναφέρεται στο χούμους, έδεσμα παντελώς αγνωστο στην Ελλάδα, το οποίο όμως στο ΗΒ θεωρούν οι πάντες ότι είναι ελληνικής προέλευσης. Φυσικό είναι ότι κάποιοι θα αισθανθούν ότι τους προσβάλλει ένα τέτοιο κείμενο. Εγώ που ζω στο ΗΒ και τα έχω ξανακούσει και ξαναδιαβάσει αυτά απλά λέω Daily Mail reader και δεν δίνω σημασία. Κάποτε με ενοχλούσε το ότι οι Βρετανοί έχουν τόσο κακή άποψη για τους Έλληνες, αλλά κι εγώ με τα χρόνια απόκτησα παρόμοια κακή άποψη για αυτούς κι είμαστε πάτσι (η άποψή μου περιλαμβάνει πολλά από αυτά που έχει βάλει με κίτρινο το Δοκτορας). Επιπλέον διαπιστωσα ότι η κακή άποψη δεν περιορίζεται στους Έλληνες, περιλαμβάνει όλη την Ευρώπη, τη Λατινική Αμερική και όσα μέρη της Ασίας και της Αφρικής δεν ήταν αποικίες. Οι μόνοι για τους οποίους έχουν καλή άποψη είναι οι Αμερικανοί (με αρκετή δουλοπρέπεια). 

Τώρα, για να πάμε στην πολιτική στην Ελλάδα: Όπως σε όλες τις χώρες είναι καλύτερα ο ξένος να παρατηρεί και να προσέχει. Εμένα μου πήρε μια πενταετία στο ΗΒ για να αρχίσω να καταλαβαίνω πως δουλευει η πολιτική, ίσως και γιατί πριν δεν έδινα σημασία και ίσως γιατί χρειάζεται να υπάρχει προηγούμενη γνώση για να κρίνει κανείς αυτά που γίνονται. Αν σήμερα ερχόταν στο ΗΒ ένας αλλοδαπός κι έβλεπε π.χ. το θόρυβο που γίνεται αυτές τις μέρες με το άρθρο του Μπόρις Τζόνσον για την μπούρκα (που ήταν θέμα όλη μέρα χτες στις ειδήσεις του μπιμπισί), τί θα καταλάβαινε; Όχι και πολλά. Δεν θα καταλάβαινε π.χ. ότι ο Μπόρις προκαλεί επιτηδες και το κάνει σε νεκρή περίοδο απο πολιτικές ειδήσεις, για να πάρει το θέμα όσο μεγαλύτερη δημοσιότητα γίνεται. Αν δεν ξέρει για τον Μπόρις τίποτα παραπάνω από το ότι ήταν περιφερειάρχης του Λονδίνου και μετά υπουργός εξωτερικών, δεν θα καταλάβει ό,τι καταλαβαίνω εγώ που τον θυμάμαι σαν γελωτοποιό στα πολιτικά σώου του μπιμπισί, που ξέρω τα οικογενειακά του σκάνδαλα και που έχω φτιάξει μια εικόνα στο μυαλό μου για τον χαρακτήρα του. Ακόμα περισσότερο, δεν θα καταλάβει ό,τι κάποιος που ξέρει καλά την βρετανική κοινωνία και που ξέρει τί τη διχάζει και τί την απασχολεί, και πού βρίσκεται ο Μπόρις σε αυτά (social class, an issue that is far bigger and divisive than the average Greek can conceive). 

Στην Ελλάδα, νομίζω πρέπει να είναι κανείς αρκετά επιφυλακτικός με τις πηγές του. Ειδικά με τις ονλάιν πηγές και τα διάφορα μπλογκ, ενημερωτικά σάιτ κλπ. Η ποιότητά τους είναι ας πούμε σχετική. 
Τώρα, ως προς το αν η ελληνική πολιτική είναι πολύπλοκη. Δε νόμίζω ότι είναι περισσότερο από την πολιτική σε οποιαδήποτε χώρα. Χαρακτηριστικό μας είναι ότι στην Ελλάδα για ιστορικούς λόγους υπάρχουν ακόμα έντονες ευαισθησίες δεξιά- αριστερά και οι εκάστοτε πολιτικοί χρησιμοποιούν αυτές τις ευαισθησίες για να προωθήσουν τις θέσεις τους. Αυτό δεν είναι ελληνική πρωτοτυπία, φυσικά. Αλλά αν δεν αναφέρεις πιο συγκεκριμένα τί σε προβληματίζει με τα πολιτικά ζητήματα της Ελλάδας δεν μπορώ να σου πω γιατί υπάρχει ευαισθησία.


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## Palavra (Aug 9, 2018)

Theseus said:


> Έχει στη σύγχρονη Ελλάδα την ελευθερία του λόγου κατά τη βρεταννικη εννοια του όρου;


Freedom of speech in Greece, like in every country embracing Western values, is a concept according to which you* can't be prosecuted by the _*government*_ for expressing your opinion. It doesn't mean that other people can't tell you that your opinion is inflammatory, racist, xenophobic or otherwise that it sucks. It also doesn't mean that your opinion will be tolerated by everyone else just because you can't go to prison for it. 

Having the right to freely express your opinion without suffering official sanctions doesn't equal the right to have everyone else put up with it.

_____________
*"you" in the grammatical sense, not as in "you, Theseus".


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## SBE (Aug 9, 2018)

I think Theseus was referring to "socially acceptable" free speech. 
In that, Greece, just like the UK is no better or worse than the rest of the world. 
There are certain social norms and sensitive issues that are not easy to discuss in public, or in polite society, even though it is not illegal to do so. 

In the UK for example, I was once very annoyed by someone on TV (a politician of a mainstream party trying to justify tuition fees) who was arguing that education is for private benefit only. In my opinion he was arrogant and self-serving and my reaction was "does that man have no shame? Why are the others in the studio not calling him out?" And this is because in Greece, just as in most of mainland Europe, education is seen as a social benefit and it is not something you would deride publicly. I know that in the UK there are a lot of people who would disagree with that politician, but they would not be particularly bothered by his speech. 
On the other hand, discussing class and race in the UK is a social faux pas, when done outside certain channels, whereas in Greece nobody need hide their thoughts and feelings on the subject. Etc etc etc.


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## Palavra (Aug 9, 2018)

Even if it is so, it is completely beyond me why someone would post a comment like the one Theseus did at #5 as a political conversation starter. A political brawl starter would be more likely. I'm sure that everyone has examples of Internet comments, in their own country, that are really not much to speak of; I can bring several here, but I wouldn't want to offend Theseus. 

This does not restrict my right to free speech, nor my right to participate in political conversations; it's just a courtesy that friends, albeit online ones, show to each other in order to keep the conversation civil.


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## Theseus (Aug 9, 2018)

No the article was not from The Daily Mail, it was from some soapbox orator whose ranting was deeply offensive to me, let alone to colleagues. He finishes his rant thus:-
"Greece is great but only for holidays. Try actually living there for 6 months and you'll understand. The people are not as kind as you think, in reality they are rude, racist and lazy. Food is great but that is if you have money to eat, as the economy of the country is destroyed. But the main reason I believe Greece is an awful country to live at is that in this country you can't have dreams. Whatever dream you have is going to crumble on the floor as this country can not support it. That's why anyone who has dreams, wants a future, wants to be someone gets out here, out of this hell. Personally when I think of Greece instead of a paradise a prison comes to my mind cause to me that's what Greece is, a prison. A prison that has destroyed my dreams and hopes and has confined me in it. A prison that I have no chance getting out off. Tourists and outsiders may not be able to see it but this country has been rotting, it has been rotting for years and now slowly but surely it's dying and together with the country we are dying too.
I am dying too. With lots of respect from a person with no tomorrow. From a person that lives in Greece."

It is bitter, unbalanced &, most of all, unworthy from a dying man. Does he want to be remembered thus?!
I admit that I was acting as the Devil's advocate and, in fact, I am at present seeking to understand the Greek political scene. Perhaps I might have acted less abrasively. For I have often had to defend Greece from her British detractors over & over again by those who see her as only a cheap holiday resort where they can inflict their barbaric manners on the tolerant locals and convert beautiful places into outposts of British barbarity & build them in their own image.
I point out the roots of the present political situation in Greece to friends who have the sort of historical amnesia that is now so common in the U.K.: the Turkish occupation, the mainly communist resistance to the Nazis in WWII, the shameful part that The Allies & Churchill through General Scobie played in the Greek Civil War in supporting the right wing establishment, ultimately leading to the Junta. How the courage of the Communists and the men & women who resisted the political regime led to the Greek Dachau in Makronisos. And so on. 
Thanks to the good doctor-- I wish he had written about the UK in Greek to help me!!--, to Palαύρα, and, of course, to SBE, who has experience of both cultures. Contrary to what may have seemed outrageous on my part to Greek colleagues, I am not so bewitched by such facile generalisations about Greece as the above. Some of the trouble that UK (educated people) have about Greece arises from the misty-eyed, romantic picture of Greece which a Classical education tends to inculcate. A better knowledge of Classical culture & civilisation would disabuse these people of such a notion.
Thanks to present day Greeks for their ready help!

PS: A personal note. Whenever I have taken school parties to Greece & by trying to speak in modern Greek have gone beyond the role of the tour organiser or the tourist visitor, I have in all cases been invited by the hotel owner or the owner of the 'villas' where we stayed & been entertained very hospitably and chatted about religion & politics over a (free) bottle of retsina, wine, ouzo or raki. Also I have even been taken to meet other Greek people in their homes. One dear old lady in Delphi 'adopted' me & showered presents of food & drink on me, simply, it seems, because I was interested in much more than the tourist 'sites'.


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## drsiebenmal (Aug 9, 2018)

Θησέα, μιλώντας σε γενικές γραμμές, η κατανόηση της σύγχρονης ελληνικής πολιτικής ιστορίας ξεκινάει με το Διχασμό του 1915 που έφερε τις πρώτες εμφύλιες πολιτικές διαμάχες ανάμεσα στους Έλληνες της Παλιάς Ελλάδας (σύνορα μέχρι το 1912) και των «Νέων Χωρών». Η φάση αυτή κορυφώθηκε με την καταστροφή του 1922. Η καταστροφή του 1922 έφερε πόλωση και εχθροπάθεια και μίσος μεταξύ Ελλήνων της Παλιάς Ελλάδας και Προσφύγων, με μπαλαντέρ τους Έλληνες των Νέων Χωρών (ανάλογα με την οικονομική τους κατάσταση) και αστάθεια και δικτατορίες και πραξικοπήματα... Όταν η κατάσταση είχε αρχίσει να ισορροπεί κάπως, ήρθε το Μεγάλο Κραχ που διέλυσε την επεκτατική οικονομική πολιτική του Βενιζέλου. Ακολούθησε πάλι αστάθεια και τελικά η κυβέρνηση Μεταξά που γρήγορα μετατράπηκε σε βασιλευόμενη δικτατορία. Μετά ο πόλεμος, η κατοχή, ο εμφύλιος 1945-1949 (άλλοι ιστορικοί αρχίζουν από το 1943) και περισσότερο μίσος, η νικήτρια αλλά ρεβανσιστική Δεξιά, η ηττημένη Αριστερά που έθεσε το όπλο παρά πόδα αλλά τραγουδήθηκε και υμνήθηκε σαν ηθική νικήτρια, 15 χρόνια εκρηκτική ανασυγκρότηση, δικτατορία, καταστροφή της Κύπρου, Μεταπολίτευση.

Το ελληνικό κράτος, οι άνθρωποι, η πολιτεία, έκαναν έναν τρελό αγώνα οικονομικού δρόμου μέσα σε μια ζωή, σε δυο γενιές: από τα ερείπια του 1950 στη χώρα των Ολυμπιακών του 2004. Δεν έχει προλάβει η κοινωνία να συντονιστεί με τις εξελίξεις, ήρθε η κρίση το 2007 (για εμένα, άλλοι αρχίζουν να μετράνε από το 2009 ή αργότερα) και η χώρα βρίσκεται σε διαρκή παραζάλη. Δεν έχει ακόμη επεξεργαστεί συλλογικά το γιγάντιο μεταπολεμικό της άλμα (και ιδίως μετά τη δικτατορία και στα πλαίσια της ΕΕ), δεν έχει συνειδητοποιήσει τι πήγε στραβά και πώς και γιατί τελικά κατέρρευσε αυτό το λαμπρό αλλά σαθρό κατασκεύασμα.

Κάποια πράγματα χρειάζονται τον χρόνο τους.


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## Palavra (Aug 9, 2018)

Theseus said:


> For I have often had to defend Greece from her British detractors over & over again by those who see her as only a cheap holiday resort where they can inflict their barbaric manners on the tolerant locals and convert beautiful places into outposts of British barbarity & build them in their own image.


I really can't understand why a British person would speak badly about Greece (or Spain, or any other country of the European South, for that matter); the UK is not the empire on which the sun never sets anymore, and unless its people rethink their unfortunate decision to exit the EU, it will soon be much poorer. Moreover, British tourists tend to be of a particularly bad quality: they get dead drunk, cause scenes, are arrested, and very often also commit insurance fraud by filing false insurance claims for theft, food poisoning and the like. 

This is how most Greeks would probably describe the average British tourist or, I should say, the average _English_ tourist, because we don't use the term _British_ in every day speech. I'd also say that the Irish, Welsh or Scottish people are not generally thought of in such a bad light. 

I believe I've inserted quite a few innocent-looking inflammatory remarks in the above analysis; I do hope that my point is not lost.


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## Theseus (Aug 9, 2018)

Thanks, Dr, for those illuminating comments about the Greek Civil War & its aftermath. I have ordered a book on the history of modern Greece & I wait with enthusiasm to receive & read it. 
Thanks also to Palαύρα. One or two comments about the above: at the time the so-called British Empire was at its height (the phrase 'on which the sun never sets' goes back to 1829 but seems to have become a political election slogan, used by Imperialists in 1899). But the realisation of the inevitable decline of the 'British Empire' was seen by Kipling. [By the way, The only use of the term 'empress' was used by Disraeli was first applied to India in 1876 to make Queen Victoria Empress, although it is clear that the title was opportunistic, in that it gained him and his party favour with the Queen, & simultaneously asserted British control of India & to warn the Russians off any pretensions there]. But Kipling, now branded a 'racist', wrote in 1897 in his hymn Recessional:-
Far-called, our navies melt away;
On dune and headland sinks the fire:
Lo, all our pomp of yesterday
Is one with Nineveh and Tyre!
Judge of the Nations, spare us yet,
Lest we forget—lest we forget!
As for Brexit, much has been written in the British Press, popularist or educated, about the PIGs countries & their economic poverty. Hence our interest. But England has long been divided into the poor North & the prosperous South, centred on London. Those who voted for Brexit (& more turned out to vote in this referendum than at any time in our political history) felt neglected & did not feel any of the benefits of the wealth that has poured into London & the Home Counties. To the Brexit voters, The European Community seems to consist of a wealthy Germany & France & the rest, with a vast & unelected expensive bureaucracy. It seems to be no coincidence that the chief negotiator, Barnier, is French.
As for Scotland & Wales, the latter considers itself as British, while 84% of the former say they are Scottish. I, who lived in Scotland for many years of my life, experienced a great deal of blatant racism, even though I can speak & understand a lot of Gaelic. I was English: that branded me indelibly. But can you imagine any party in England calling itself 'The English National Party'! The very idea is unthinkable! Bound to be 'racist'. 
I entirely agree with you about the English abroad. They are a disgrace. Young people who have been there have told me how they partied, got pissed & really enjoyed themselves!! But the real trouble arises from the fact that Scotland is proud of its roots & history; Wales too. But England? We are British, multi-cultural, & discouraged from having any national identity. We are scared & our identity now is either a horrible nationalism or ignorant yobbery. We have become uncivilised.


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## SBE (Aug 10, 2018)

> "Greece is great but only for holidays. Try actually living there for 6 months and you'll understand.



That is a Greek person speaking. 



> Food is great but that is if you have money to eat


Definitely a Greek person. British people don't talk about αν έχεις λεφτά να φας. 



> A prison that has destroyed my dreams and hopes and has confined me in it.


So, someone who lives in Greece and cannot leave, possibly because of family commitments (usually parents that are in their late 50s and 60s but behave like they are 90 and expect their children to stay close and be dependent on them for ever). An arrangement that worked well for some time, when there was enough money to go around, but has become troublesome nowadays. 



> it's dying and together with the country we are dying too.



Let me introduce you to a Greek literary work of a similar title...




> I am dying too. With lots of respect from a person with no tomorrow



He is not saying he is terminally ill. He is saying that he has no future because the country is the way it is. 
Actually Theseus, the whole rant, especially the latter piece, is typical of the things one hears a lot since the beginning of the financial crisis. It's a kind of rhetoric that has been around for some time (see book above, published in 1978, and others), but you hear it more often nowadays. 



> I am at present seeking to understand the Greek political scene.



The Greek political scene consists of a centre left party that governed Greece for most of the time since 1974, which like most big parties offered shelter to an assortment of ideologies and opportunists. The opportunists abandoned ship when the financial crisis turned the voters against the parties they considered responsible for it, and joined a small left party, itself a splinter of the KKE, and helped bring it to power. That's the party that currently governs Greece. The original party is now too small and consumed in its own problems to be of any consequence. 
It also consists of a centre right party that is also sheltering opportunists and loonies, and which now suffers from a major dilemma: ditch the opportunists and never get close to power or keep them and lose moderate voters? I'm afraid in Greek politics there is no choice: the majority of voters really want no change. They want to be reassured that there will be ρουσφέτια for ever, and that they will be able να διοριστούν στο δημόσιο. And they will vote for whoever maintains the status quo. As seen by the policies and politics of the current government. 
There's KKE, which I think is still around because it is a very well organised and very wealthy political party but its supporter base is shrinking because the old comrades are dying. Being very far from power, they can say whatever they like and I sometimes I find myself agreeing with them, believe it or not. Despite never achieving the 17% that I remember them talk about, they have been the most successful political party in Greece. They managed to convince everyone (including you, Theseus) that they were the romantic heroes who fought valiantly for a noble cause etc etc. And that has not helped heal the social and political rifts in Greek society. 
And there is also an assortment of fruitcake parties, some damaging because they are close to power, some of no consequence. 
I don't know if that answers your question. 



> where we stayed & been entertained very hospitably and chatted about religion & politics over a (free) bottle of retsina, wine, ouzo or raki. Also I have even been taken to meet other Greek people in their homes.


Oι Έλληνες ήταν πάντα ξενομανείς και δουλοπρεπείς. Αν ο ξένος είναι από δυτική χώρα. 
Αν πήγαινε από εκέι κανένας Έλληνας διεθνώς αναγνωρισμένος πανεπιστημιακός π.χ. με ειδικότητα religion and politics θα λέγανε έλα μωρέ, τί ξέρει να πει κι αυτός τώρα.


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## nickel (Aug 10, 2018)

Αυτές τις μέρες προσπάθησα να απομακρυνθώ από την ελληνική πραγματικότητα διαβάζοντας όσο γινόταν λιγότερα για τις τραγικές εξελίξεις και αποφεύγοντας τις κλασικά μονόπλευρες αναλύσεις. Ένα από τα βιβλία που με πήραν μακριά αν και μόνο νοερά ήταν το βιβλίο του Μπιλ Μπράισον _The Road to Little Dribbling: More Notes from a Small Island_.

Με την ευκαιρία, Theseus, για ποιο βιβλίο ιστορίας λες; Εγώ λέω να διαβάσω το _A Concise History of Greece_, κυρίως γιατί κάποτε γνώρισα και συνεργάστηκα με τον Ρίτσαρντ Κλογκ. Δυστυχώς πέρασαν πολλά χρόνια από τότε και ακόμα δεν έχω καταφέρει να διαβάσω την ιστορία του.


ΥΓ. SBE, I like.


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## Palavra (Aug 10, 2018)

SBE said:


> Αν ο ξένος είναι από δυτική χώρα.


To be more precise, quite a lot of Greeks have absolutely no problem whatsoever with foreigners, as long as the foreigners are not poor. They don't mind the well-off Russians or Arabs, on the contrary they do mind the broke British tourists. It is a peculiar form of racism.



Theseus said:


> TThose who voted for Brexit (& more turned out to vote in this referendum than at any time in our political history) felt neglected & did not feel any of the benefits of the wealth that has poured into London & the Home Counties. To the Brexit voters, The European Community seems to consist of a wealthy Germany & France & the rest, with a vast & unelected expensive bureaucracy. It seems to be no coincidence that the chief negotiator, Barnier, is French.


The Brexit voter demographics do not overwhelmingly correspond to "poor, uneducated people". Age played an important part, as older, middle-class people (who probably had fond memories of the foregoing empire over which the sun never sets) tended to embrace the idea of leaving the EU. 

And yes, Barnier is French. He is also a federalist - an excellent choice, in my opinion, following the nomination of David Davis. 

And since we are venturing in Brexit waters, I'd like to take the opportunity and say, again, that I fervently hope the British people will reconsider. The EU will not be the same without them, but they will also suffer because of their choice. This is a globalised world; we need each other.


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## SBE (Aug 10, 2018)

Palavra said:


> To be more precise, quite a lot of Greeks have absolutely no problem whatsoever with foreigners, as long as the foreigners are not poor. They don't mind the well-off Russians or Arabs, on the contrary they do mind the broke British tourists. It is a peculiar form of racism.



It's not racism, it's what-can-I-get-out-of-you-ism. 
Back in the days of young western backpackers sleeping rough at the stations or ports there was some derision (αλητοτουρίστες) but people still showed an interest, if they could get something out of them. We are not talking about money, of course, but the pleasure of associating with someone you think is superior to you. That's when the free food and bottles of wine come out. And of course how they pick the people they are over-hospitable to is an exercise in stereotyping. 
Middle aged man who appears to be able to pay his own way? Come this way. 
Teachers accompanying school groups? Why not! Teaching is an OK profession. This way, sir. 
Young attractive unaccompanied female? You're in. 
World leading literary figure in low-key appearance, who just asked politely for directions? Hell, no! (unless we know who he is)
Nobel laureate and great thinker who is old, wrinkly and plain? Ditto, unless we know who she is. 
Random stranger from another part of Greece? Absolutely no way. Τί να μας πουν κι αυτοί; Σάμπως δεν ξέρουμε τους Πατρινούς/ τους Σαλονικιούς/ τους Κρητικούς;


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## Theseus (Aug 10, 2018)

Thanks to all, as ever. Yes Nickel, the book I have ordered is indeed the book by Richard Clogg, published by the CUP. I managed to get a very cheap copy. Thanks for your elucidation of the present political scene, SBE. it is very helpful. As for the remarks you made, Palαύρα, I didn't say 'poor, uneducated people'. They are poorer but some are very educated, but others plain intolerant. That too applies to the term 'young' also, where intolerance is growing at an alarming rate. There is a “crisis of free speech on campus”.
63.5 per cent of universities actively censor speech and 30.5 per cent stifle speech through excessive regulation. You can barely go a few days without encountering a new form of censorship on campus. Unfortunately, this is breeding a new generation of right wing conservatives!
The generation of those who wistfully longed for 'the Empire' isn't my generation but that of my parents. We were the postwar poor: in fact, I was brought up in a vicarage in a very poor working class area, where food was scarce & people shared what little food they had. My next door neighbour, a Marxist, had newspapers for his tablecloth. Hardship encouraged community spirit. I remember The National Health Service starting but it was too late for those who had polio except to provide them with calipers. This is no rant: it is true. But those days are past, and there is little nostalgia for them!
Thank you for all this discussion. It has been indeed worthwhile. 
A last question: who were the prison camps of Gyaros & Makronisos originally intended for? I know that Mikis Theodorakis was sent there & was buried alive twice(?!). I know that the Junta used them later. 
But that is politics enough for a week or more. All comments and information will be carefully weighed...:)


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## drsiebenmal (Aug 10, 2018)

nickel said:


> Με την ευκαιρία, Theseus, για ποιο βιβλίο ιστορίας λες; Εγώ λέω να διαβάσω το _A Concise History of Greece_, κυρίως γιατί κάποτε γνώρισα και συνεργάστηκα με τον Ρίτσαρντ Κλογκ. Δυστυχώς πέρασαν πολλά χρόνια από τότε και ακόμα δεν έχω καταφέρει να διαβάσω την ιστορία του.



I had the honour to translate the last chapter of the latest edition of the book in Greek, which updates it up to the beginnings of the crisis, and edit along the way some minor glitches of the previous editions. It's an excellent book.


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## Palavra (Aug 10, 2018)

Theseus said:


> A last question: who were the prison camps of Gyaros & Makronisos originally intended for?



In the '20s, Makronisos was used for quarantine for incoming refugees from the Black Sea and from Minor Asia (who were also Greeks, though). Post-WWII and for decades after, it was being used as a place for exile for communists, as it was during the Junta (I stand corrected :)). Gyaros was also a place of exile from the late '40s to the end of the Junta, for conscientious objectors (who, at that time, were mostly Jehovah's Witnesses), and for communists.

The conditions were extremely harsh, and many people died, among whom pregnant women.


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## Marinos (Aug 10, 2018)

Palavra said:


> In the '20s, Makronisos was used for quarantine for incoming refugees from the Black Sea and from Minor Asia (who were also Greeks, though). Post-WWII and for decades after, it was being used as a place for exile for communists, as it was during the Junta. Gyaros was also a place of exile from the late '40s to the end of the Junta, for conscientious objectors (who, at that time, were mostly Jehovah's Witnesses), and for communists.
> 
> The conditions were extremely harsh, and many people died, among whom pregnant women.



A small correction: Makronisos was not used after 1955. Before, and especially during the Civil War, it was nominally an army camp for communist soldiers (youths in age of army service), who were tortured, humiliated and pressed in many ways until they signed a declaration of repentance. 
https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/Οργανισμός_Αναμορφωτηρίων_Μακρονήσου


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## Theseus (Aug 10, 2018)

As a prisoner at Makronisos in the Greek Civil War, how can Theodorakis have been buried twice unless this was a brutal form of torture, in which the victim was buried for a time & then exhumed a little time later? I gather that under the Junta he was sent to the concentration camp at Oropos.


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## SBE (Aug 10, 2018)

Can you provide a source, Theseus, because I have just checked and there is no mention of what you are saying in any of the extended biographies that I have found online.

Edit: OK, I found something. He was buried to the neck. Presumably not like the people who do so on a sandy beach, but hopefully that answers your question, Theseus.


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## nickel (Aug 10, 2018)

From his own site, which seems unavailable now, so I had to ferret this from the cache:

[1949]
End of May Theodorakis is sentenced to return to Makronissos.

July - August Theodorakis, back to Makronissos, suffers awfully. One evening, he is buried alive and rescued only by chance.

Makronissos
Theodorakis back to Makronissos :
a wounded man!

Again he is tortured and left for dead. Again Yorgos Theodorakis succeeds to obtain a transfer of his son to the continent and to set him free as an invalid. For the first time in his life, Mikis visits Crete. But even there he must suffer the »falanga«-torture by the gendarmes of Chania. After that, his mother has a nervous breakdown.

15.10. Official end of the civil war. The government is victorious.


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## Earion (Aug 11, 2018)

A small correction: Oropos was a prison, not a concentration camp.


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## Theseus (Aug 11, 2018)

This was the source I had, SBE: 
https://weareoca.com/subject/music/the-uniqueness-of-mikis-theodorakis/.
Thanks to all for their efforts on my behalf! To Nickel for ferreting that info out. Sorry, Earion, for the mistake! I read it here where tha words 'concentration camp' were used:- http://wikipedia.qwika.com/de2en/Oropos_(Attika).


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## Earion (Aug 14, 2018)

Theseus said:


> Sorry, Earion, for the mistake! I read it here where tha words 'concentration camp' were used:- http://wikipedia.qwika.com/de2en/Oropos_(Attika).



It says "machine translated into English".


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