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Thread: Αποφθέγματα - Αποφεύγματα: Το είπε... Δεν το είπε...

  1. #1
    Senior Member LostVerse's Avatar
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    Αποφθέγματα - Αποφεύγματα: Το είπε... Δεν το είπε...

    (Σκοπίμως ή μη) λανθασμένη παράθεση αποφθεγμάτων αρχαίων Ελλήνων

    Αρκετές φορές αρχαίοι Έλληνες έχουν πέσει θύματα είτε κακής ανάγνωσης είτε σκοπιμοτήτων, με αποτέλεσμα να τους αποδίδονται φράσεις που ουδέποτε είπαν. Ορισμένα παραδείγματα και πηγές:

    "In war, truth is the first casualty" - «Στον πόλεμο, το πρώτο θύμα είναι η αλήθεια.»
    Αποδίδεται στον Αισχύλο

    "Only the dead have seen the end of war" - «Μόνο οι νεκροί έχουν δει το τέλος του πολέμου.»
    Αποδίδεται στον Πλάτωνα

    Και βέβαια το πολύ γνωστό και πρόσφατο Η δημοκρατία μας αυτοκαταστρέφεται
    Αποδίδεται στον Ισοκράτη

    Κάθε σκέψη ή άλλες περιπτώσεις ευπρόσδεκτες.
    Last edited by nickel; 11-04-2010 at 03:09 PM.

  2. #2
    Administrator nickel's Avatar
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    Πολύ καλή ιδέα η δημιουργία ενός τέτοιου νήματος.

    Έχω στο παρελθόν εντοπίσει αρκετά τέτοια, κυρίως εκεί που ξένοι ζητούσαν να βρούμε το πρωτότυπο αποφθεγμάτων που κυκλοφορούν στο διαδίκτυο στα αγγλικά. Το πρωτότυπο δεν βρισκόταν πουθενά γιατί ο αρχαίος δεν είχε πει ποτέ κάτι τέτοιο ή το είχε πει τόσο διαφορετικά που θα έπρεπε να γνωρίζεις το σύνολο του έργου του για να εντοπίσεις πού και πώς ξεκίνησε η διαστρέβλωση. Οπότε θα έχω να φέρω πράγματα εδώ.

    Προς το παρόν, άλλαξα τον τίτλο. Το «αποφεύγματα» δεν είναι απλώς μια δημιουργική λεξιπλασία, αλλά και ένα συνηθισμένο ορθογραφικό λάθος. Πατήστε στον τύπο των ήλων, ω άπιστοι Θωμάδες.
    Μένω ΕυρώπηΣύγκρουση ιδεών, όχι βία και μισαλλοδοξία: δεν οδηγούν πουθενά. (Λ. Κύρκος)Αριστεία, ρε!
    ΕΝΑ ΝΗΜΑ ΤΗΝ ΗΜΕΡΑ ΤΗΝ ΑΝΙΑ ΚΑΝΕΙ ΠΕΡΑ. Staying hungry, staying foolish. Το διαδίκτυο βλάπτει όταν δεν σκέφτεσαι.

  3. #3
    Administrator nickel's Avatar
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    Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination, and life to everything.
    Του «Πλάτωνα»
    http://www.lexilogia.gr/forum/showthread.php?t=7325
    Μένω ΕυρώπηΣύγκρουση ιδεών, όχι βία και μισαλλοδοξία: δεν οδηγούν πουθενά. (Λ. Κύρκος)Αριστεία, ρε!
    ΕΝΑ ΝΗΜΑ ΤΗΝ ΗΜΕΡΑ ΤΗΝ ΑΝΙΑ ΚΑΝΕΙ ΠΕΡΑ. Staying hungry, staying foolish. Το διαδίκτυο βλάπτει όταν δεν σκέφτεσαι.

  4. #4
    Administrator nickel's Avatar
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    Σήμερα ο Στ. Κασιμάτης στη Καθημερινή μεταφέρει μια από αυτές τις μυθικές, τις φανταστικές στιχομυθίες που δεν έγιναν ποτέ.

    Αλλά, για να μην σας κουράζω με ένα ατυχές remake, προτιμώ να σας παρουσιάσω το πρωτότυπο, δηλαδή τον διάλογο μεταξύ της θρυλικής βουλευτίνας των Εργατικών Μπέσι Μπράντοκ και του Ουίνστον Τσόρτσιλ: «Ουίνστον, είσαι μεθυσμένος!» Και η απάντηση του Ουίνστον: «Μπέσι, είσαι άσχημη. Αύριο όμως εγώ θα είμαι ξεμέθυστος». (Σημειωτέον ότι η Μπράντοκ ήταν τέρας ασχήμιας...)

    Αντιγράφω από τη Wikipedia:

    [Bessie Braddock] is often erroneously credited with a celebrated exchange of insults with Winston Churchill, also ascribed to Nancy Astor:
    Braddock: "Winston, you are drunk, and what's more you are disgustingly drunk."
    Churchill: "Bessie, my dear, you are ugly, and what's more, you are disgustingly ugly. But tomorrow I shall be sober and you will still be disgustingly ugly."

    Ήταν ακριβής ο Σ.Κ. ως προς την ασχήμια της Μπράντοκ. Το εξώφυλλο βιογραφίας της:


    Αξίζει να προστεθεί εδώ σύνδεσμος σε κείμενο του Simon Hoggart για διάφορους παρόμοιους πολιτικούς μύθους:
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...cal-myths.html

    You could fill a book with what Winston Churchill didn't say. It would be almost as long as one made up of genuine quotes.

    There's no record of the occasion when the Labour MP Bessie Braddock said: "You are drunk!" and he replied: "And you, madam, are ugly. But I shall be sober in the morning." It was an old gag, even then.

    As was the time when he passed an office in Parliament and heard an MP bellowing. "He's talking to Edinburgh," someone explained. "Then why doesn't he use the telephone?" Churchill replied. Or rather he didn't.

    Nor did he say: "An empty taxi drew up at the Commons and Mr Attlee got out." Churchill was unhappy that people believed he had said it, so he tried - and failed - to set the record straight.

    The truth was that, behind the party political knockabout, he had great admiration for Attlee, who as Deputy Prime Minister had been a stalwart colleague through the war.

    But people assumed that the mighty Churchill must look down on the quiet, diminutive Labour leader, and of course the jibe stuck.
    Μένω ΕυρώπηΣύγκρουση ιδεών, όχι βία και μισαλλοδοξία: δεν οδηγούν πουθενά. (Λ. Κύρκος)Αριστεία, ρε!
    ΕΝΑ ΝΗΜΑ ΤΗΝ ΗΜΕΡΑ ΤΗΝ ΑΝΙΑ ΚΑΝΕΙ ΠΕΡΑ. Staying hungry, staying foolish. Το διαδίκτυο βλάπτει όταν δεν σκέφτεσαι.

  5. #5
    Senior Member SBE's Avatar
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    Αμάν βρε Νίκελ βάλε καμιά καλυτερη φωτογραφία της γυναίκας. μία που να χαμογελάει τουλάχιστον!


    Κι εδω η Νάνσυ Άστορ

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    Senior Member LostVerse's Avatar
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    You may not be interested in war, but war is interested in you.

    Υποτίθεται ότι το είπε ο Λέων Τρότσκι, αλλά έχει αμφισβητηθεί. Ενδεικτικά: http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Leon_Trotsky#Misattributed

  7. #7
    Administrator nickel's Avatar
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    Με τίτλο «Αυτό δεν το είπε ο Σουρής», ο sarant αναφέρεται σήμερα σε ποίημα του Αλέξανδρου Σούτσου, το οποίο, μετά από ελαφρά παραμόρφωση, αποδόθηκε στον Σουρή. Έχω την εντύπωση ότι αυτούς τους δύο τούς μπερδεύουν συχνά.

    Με την ευκαιρία γίνεται γενικότερη αναφορά σε αποφθέγματα που κυκλοφορούν με εσφαλμένη πατρότητα / απόδοση της πατρότητας (misattributions), υπάρχει παραπομπή στη List of misquotations της Wikipedia και ειδικότερη αναφορά γίνεται στο βολταιρικό «Διαφωνώ με όσα λες αλλά θα υπερασπιστώ μέχρι θανάτου το δικαίωμά σου να τα λες», που βρίσκεται στην κορυφή της λίστας.

    Σε σχέση με την εσφαλμένη απόδοση της πατρότητας ενός αποφθέγματος ή παραθέματος, θεωρώ πολύ υπεύθυνη και άξια μελέτης την προσέγγιση που υιοθετεί ο ιστότοπος των Wikiquotes. Αντιγράφω (τα έντονα, δικά μου):

    Wikiquote: Misattribution

    A misattributed quote is one that has been popularly, or notably, attributed to a person, but for which evidence indicates that no such quote has been authored by that person. A quote is misattributed where it clearly originated from other than the page's subject, or strong evidence provides no credibility to any claim of his or her authorship. Unless a quote can be proven to originate elsewhere it is of course very difficult or impossible to "prove" it did not originate with a cited author, but there are usually strong bodies of evidence which lead one to conclude the person should be assumed not to have made the remark, until proven otherwise.

    Misattributions may arise for any number of reasons, including:

    • innocent errors in translation or restatement of an original quote
    • incorrect identification between two authors of similar quotes
    • use by a later author of a quote actually by an earlier author
    • slander of the purported author by attributing detestable comments to that author
    • overzealous defense of a belief by attributing statements in support of that belief to an authoritative figure


    Wikiquote's policy on misattributions is to include them, but to clearly identify them as misattributions by placing them in a "Misattributed" section, and to identify to the greatest extent possible the actual author and how the quote became misattributed. The reason we include such quotes is to deal with quotes we have discovered to be mistakenly or doubtfully attributed. If we were merely to delete all these quotes, it would only be a matter of time before they were added once again.

    In order for a quote to be listed as "misattributed" we must show two things. First, a verifiable source showing that someone has attributed the quote to the purported author (as with Clinton's asserting that this was a Franklin quote), and second, some evidence that the attribution is a mistake (either by reference to the correct author, or by reference to an unsuccessful search for evidence that the purported author made that statement). A quote can not really be called "misattributed" - and should not be included at all - if no one is attributing the quote to the author.

    For example, Benjamin Franklin has a sections for "misattributed" quotes. One example is of Bill Clinton attributing to Franklin something for which no source in Franklin's writing can be found. A quote newly attributed to a noted figure who has been dead for centuries, for which no earlier source can be found, may be presumed to be an error.

    Inclusion of misattributed quotes is not defamatory. While it would be defamatory to intentionally misattribute a quote, it is not defamatory to report that a quote has been misattributed to someone, so long as we can cite the source for the attribution. Provided that the "misattribution" was not done by Wikiquote itself (in that case the offending quote should just be removed), and provided that this "misattribution" was identified as such in independent reliable secondary sources.

    Whether or not to report a misattribution should depend on whether the error is widespread and repeated in sources that are otherwise considered reliable. There is a duty to act on errors when they are identified, but whether to simply remove them or to report them depends on where they are repeated.

    Wikiquote is not Wikipedia. In determining that a quote has indeed been misattributed, there is no problem with relying on original research. Wikipedia has good reasons for its policies, but they are specific to its function, and are not relevant to our very different function.
    Μένω ΕυρώπηΣύγκρουση ιδεών, όχι βία και μισαλλοδοξία: δεν οδηγούν πουθενά. (Λ. Κύρκος)Αριστεία, ρε!
    ΕΝΑ ΝΗΜΑ ΤΗΝ ΗΜΕΡΑ ΤΗΝ ΑΝΙΑ ΚΑΝΕΙ ΠΕΡΑ. Staying hungry, staying foolish. Το διαδίκτυο βλάπτει όταν δεν σκέφτεσαι.

  8. #8
    Senior Member LostVerse's Avatar
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    «Ο Κομμουνισμός είναι πνευματική ψώρα»

    Αποδίδεται στο Νίκο Καζαντζάκη. Παρόλαυτά δεν μπορώ να το διασταυρώσω από αξιόπιστη πηγή, οπότε μάλλον στα αποφεύγματα κατατάσσεται.

  9. #9
    Administrator nickel's Avatar
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    You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time.

    • This is probably the most famous of apparently apocryphal remarks attributed to Lincoln. Despite being cited variously as from an 1856 speech, or a September 1858 speech in Clinton, Illinois, there are no known contemporary records or accounts substantiating that he ever made the statement. The earliest known appearance is October 29, 1886 in the Milwaukee Daily Journal. It later appeared in the New York Times on August 26 and August 27, 1887. The saying was repeated several times in newspaper editorials later in 1887. In 1888 and, especially, 1889, the saying became commonplace, used in speeches, advertisements, and on portraits of Lincoln. In 1905 and later, there were attempts to find contemporaries of Lincoln who could recall Lincoln saying this. Historians have not, generally, found these accounts convincing. For more information see two articles in For the People: A Newsletter of the Abraham Lincoln Association, "'You Can Fool All of the People' Lincoln Never Said That", by Thomas F. Schwartz (V. 5, #4, Winter 2003, p. 1) and "A New Look at 'You Can Fool All of the People'" by David B. Parker (V. 7, #3, Autumn 2005, p. 1); also the talk page. The statement has also sometimes been attributed to P. T. Barnum, although no references to this have been found from the nineteenth century.
    Variants:
    • You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all of the time, but you cannot fool all of the people all of the time.
    • You can fool all of the people some of the time, and some of the people all of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.
    • You can deceive all of the people some of the time, and some of the people all of the time, but you can't deceive all of the people all of the time.

    http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Abraham_Lincoln
    Μένω ΕυρώπηΣύγκρουση ιδεών, όχι βία και μισαλλοδοξία: δεν οδηγούν πουθενά. (Λ. Κύρκος)Αριστεία, ρε!
    ΕΝΑ ΝΗΜΑ ΤΗΝ ΗΜΕΡΑ ΤΗΝ ΑΝΙΑ ΚΑΝΕΙ ΠΕΡΑ. Staying hungry, staying foolish. Το διαδίκτυο βλάπτει όταν δεν σκέφτεσαι.

  10. #10
    Senior Member pidyo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nickel View Post
    You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time.
    Για τους απαισιόδοξους, υπάρχει και η ωραία παραλλαγή του James Thurber, μεταξύ άλλων καρτουνίστα του New Yorker:
    You can fool too many of the people too much of the time.

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