Νεράιδα (καλοκυρά)

In one of two wonderful and moving sonnets, which SBE referred to in Discussing anything under the sun, Lambros Porphyras writes:

Πήραν στρατί στρατί το μονοπάτι
βασιλοπούλες και καλοκυράδες...


How would I translate either term in the title? I know that in the depths of the countryside in Greece there is a firm belief in "the Good People"; I have myself come across it once or twice and many Greek islanders can tell of people who have seen them.
The author of a book printed by the Cambridge University Press in 1910, viz. J C Lawson, writes in detail of this belief and on p. 131 writes: "I myself once had a Nereid pointed out to me by my guide and there was certainly the resemblance of a female figure, draped in white and tall beyond human stature, flitting in the dusk between the gnarled and twisted boles of an old olive-yard. What that apparition was I had no leisure to investigate..."
An old man in Glencoe, in Scotland, who believed in such things, said to me many years back said that we still believed in such apparitions but whereas he would say "there is a spirit in that cave", now we say "that cave spooks me out, that cave is haunted".
Be that as it may, in the sonnet referred to an English translator calls the καλοκυράδες "mermaids". I understand why but could I translate it as "fairy queens", which keeps the mythic overtones and goes well with "princesses"? :(
 

daeman

Administrator
Staff member
...but could I translate it as "fairy queens", which keeps the mythic overtones and goes well with "princesses"? :(
Of course. The fair folk can have many names in Greek as in other languages. But please don't rely upon us to untangle that mess; it's a fairly hairy fairy subject.

sugar-plum fairy = η νεράιδα Ζαχαρένια

to be away with the fairies

the tooth fairy

The muses (fairies)

Fair Folk

changeling

Crystal Fairy, Crystal Hairy, Hairy Fairy

The lang, lang shadows creep


...
Sleep weel, my bairnie, sleep. | Κοιμήσου εσύ, παιδάκι μου
Τhe lang, lang shadows creep, | Τώρα οι σκιές μακραίνουν
The fairies play on the munelicht brae | Νεράιδες φεγγαρόλουστες
An' the stars are on the deep. | κάτω απ' τ' αστέρια παίζουν
...
 
Thanks, 'Man! Full of good puns as ever. But I think that "mermaids" coming along the path "slowly, oh so slow" is an odd idea: a "slippery" subject perhaps.:) I didn't expect you to untangle the mess: I only wished to point that mere scepticism based on modern scientific assumptions is somewhat naive and "animism", the belief that spirits live in trees, rivers, springs, nymphs and the like, is not what is meant in the literature. The tree, the nymph and the river are the spirits. The reaction of "fear" or "awe" to being alone in, say a forest or by a waterfall in a very quiet place is the spirit.
Maybe it is our "estranged faces" and the endless chatter of city life that miss something our forbears knew intimately. Feelings of awe and spookiness (and the now ubiquitous programmes on the paranormal) may have something important to tell us even nowadays... I don't know. So no attempt at entanglement: just a suspension of the chattering mind with its non-stop refusal to be quiet is the first step. The cultivation of silence. :confused::blush:
 

Neikos

Member
Επειδή είμαι τσίφτης και καραμπουζουκλής θα βάλω άλλη μια ερμηνεία στο τραπέζι. Καλοκυράδες εκτός από τις νεράιδες λέγονται και οι αρχόντισσες (παλιότερα δηλαδή, γιατί τώρα δυστυχώς έχουν χαθεί και οι δύο). Στο συγκεκριμένο ποίημα δεν νομίζω ότι αναφέρεται σε νεράιδες, είναι μάλλον απίθανο ανάμεσα στις βασιλοπούλες, τους βασιλιάδες και τους καβαλάρηδες να ακολουθούσε και κανένα τσούρμο νεράιδες. Για παράδειγμα, οι "Las Incantadas" της Θεσσαλονίκης, εκτός από Μαγεμένες, Γητεμένες κλπ., είχαν ονομαστεί και Καλοκυράδες της αγοράς, αν δεν κάνω λάθος. Και σύμφωνα με τον μύθο από τον οποίο πήραν το όνομα, πρέπει να ήταν η συνοδεία του βασιλιά.

Βάζω και την πρώτη στροφή :

"Πήραν στρατί στρατί το μονοπάτι
βασιλοπούλες και καλοκυράδες,
από τις ξένες χώρες βασιλιάδες
και καβαλάρηδες απάνω στ’ άτι."

http://greek_greek.enacademic.com/70527/καλοκυρά
 
You have a strong point here.

Το λεξικό του Δημητράκου δίνει ως δεύτερη σημασία του "καλοκυρά" το αρχοντισσα, παραθέτοντας ακριβώς αυτόν τον στίχο του Πορφύρα.
 
Thanks to all three! I am not exactly sure what Neikos means by the words τσίφτης και καραμπουζουκλής. The dictionary doesn't give anything but vague equivalents and μάγκας is one such translation. I would like a simple explanation, since both terms are often used together, as in Neikos's comments.

This is a translation of the sonnet by Timothy Adés:

Along the pathway slowly, slowly,
they came, princesses, mermaids, riders
on horses, kings of far-off countries;

moved round my granny’s bed and chanted,
between a pair of pallid tapers,
as singers do, some song or other.

Not one there was who loved my granny
and killed the dragon and the ogre
to bring her the immortal water.

Below, I saw my mother kneeling;
and, once upon a time, above us,
the Archangelic wings were beating.

Are there any more corrections to his version? So αρχόντισσες means here 'retinue' or 'noblewomen'. So stanza 3 is the main fairy tale ingredient of the poem?
 

daeman

Administrator
Staff member
...
τσίφτης ο [tsíftis] θηλ. τσίφτισσα [tsíftisa]: (λαϊκ.) 1. άνθρωπος πανέξυπνος, καπάτσος. || μάγκας[SUB]2[/SUB]. 2. άνθρωπος άψογος: α. στην εξωτερική του εμφάνιση. β. στη συμπεριφορά του· άνθρωπος εντάξει.
[αλβ. qift `γεράκι΄ -ης με προώθηση της άρθρ. [i > tsi] (για τη σημ. σύγκρ. σαΐνι τσίφτ(ης) -ισσα]


Μαρίκα Νίνου & Μιχάλης Γενίτσαρης

Απ' όλες που αγάπησα ως τώρα στη ζωή μου
μόνο μια τσίφτισσα μικρή σκλάβωσε την ψυχή μου

Μ' έχει η τσίφτισσα τρελάνει
με τα κόλπα που μου κάνει
...

In sense 1: eyes like a hawk (cf. γερακίσιο μάτι, e.g. Hawkeye Pierce :-) ) > bright, clever, sharp

compare: σαΐνι and ξεφτέρι = sparrowhawk | (μτφ.) ace, past master, expert | (πληθ.) hexapteryga

Not like me this afternoon, when I failed to notice the context of the sonnet. :-(


καραμπουζουκλής @ slang.gr


I think they're used together like many pairs of synonyms or near-synonyms, augmenting the meaning.
See Sarant's blog about such word pairs: Στάχτη και μπούρμπερη, πομπή και γάνα και άλλα τέτοια ζευγάρια.
 

SBE

¥
Καλοκυράδες is definitely ladies, noble women, women of noble birth. The fairytales alluded to here are the medieval tales of the brothers Grimm and the tales of Perrault, that generations of Greek kids grew up with.

Τσίφτης και καραμπoυζουκλής= a standard expression (they usually go together) and they mean that someone is clever, resourceful and μάγκας. And therefore does not fall for the wrong explanation. Τσίφτης/ τσίφτισσα is clever, μάγκας, a person who is forward and honest in his/ her dealings. I had to look up καραμπουζουκλής, and apparently it means someone who is manly / masculine, therefore more μάγκας etc.

As for the poem, noone killed the ogre or the dragon for his grandmother's sake (and love), to bring her the water of eternal life (whose spring is usually guarded by one of those creatures), so she is dying.
 
An excellent reply, SBE, to my thread! The sonnets that you referred me to have been well worth reading and studying but, as you and others have seen, Adès translation here led me astray. And Margaret Sparshott's reference to the 'angel's wings' should have been 'the Archangel's [Michael's] wings'. The way both sonnets treat of death are what has been called 'an emotional education': learning great literature about the important themes of life and death give us a language which help us cope with these subjects when we have to face them.
Thanks also for the elucidation of the terms τσίφτης και καραμπουζούκλης.
 

Neikos

Member
Μιας κ αναφέρθηκε o Δημητράκος, ίσως μου λύσετε μια απορία. Το enacademic στο οποίο βρήκα τη λέξη, είναι ηλεκτρονική έκδοση του Δημητράκου ή άλλου παλιού λεξικού; Αν και συνήθως εμφανίζει αποτελέσματα από περισσότερα από ένα λεξικά. Κι αν είναι του Δημητράκου, δίνει απλώς τη βασική ερμηνεία της λέξης χωρίς το επιπλέον υλικό που απ' ό,τι καταλαβαίνω υπάρχει στην έντυπη έκδοση, όπως παραδείγματα χρήσης, λογοτεχνικά αποσπάσματα κλπ;

(Θησέα, είναι εύκολο να κάνεις μια αντιγραφή-επικόλληση της μετάφρασης της Sparshott από τα γκουγκλοβιβλία σε κανονικό κείμενο στη Λεξιλόγια, επειδή με τον Όπερα που έχω στο παλαιολιθικό κινητό μου, δεν μπορώ να το διαβάσω;)
 

SBE

¥
Since both these poems, Theseus, were taught at school when I was a kid (Λήθη in modern Greek and the one on grandmother's death was in the anthologies we were given), Ι think that a look through Greek schoolbooks would be beneficial for cultural as well as linguistic reasons. The links I provided were from schoolbooks online. After that, every Greek song will make sense (with some exceptions).
 
Thanks, SBE. I will follow up what you have written. Neikos, here is the translation of Margaret Sparshott:-

One by one they took the path
The princesses and ladies fair,
Upon their horses gallant knights,
And king's from far off lands were there.

Who knows what songs they sang to her
As round my Grandmother's bedside
They passed between the candle flames
That flickering softly leapt and died.

No-one for love of my poor old Gran
Would kill the Dragon or Bogeyman
Water of life to bring!
Yet my mother kneeling by the bed-
Once upon a time-heard overhead
The beat of an angel's wing.

For the last line I would write:- 'The beat of the Archangel's [Michael's] wing'.
What really does στρατί στρατί mean? ΛΚΝ doesn't really help.
 

Neikos

Member
Ευχαριστώ, Θησέα.
Νομίζω πως σημαίνει διασχίζω τον έναν δρόμο μετά τον άλλο, ξεκινώ μια μεγάλη πορεία για κάπου. Η επανάληψη μάλλον δίνει έμφαση στη μεγάλη απόσταση, στη διάρκεια του ταξιδιού. Θα το συναντήσεις συνήθως στα δημοτικά τραγούδια, σε διάφορες παραλλαγές, πχ παίρνω το δρόμο, το στρατί / παίρνω το στρατί-στρατί / παίρνω το στρατί, το μονοπάτι / παίρνω το δρόμο-δρόμο κλπ. Στα παραμύθια συνήθως είναι "δρόμο παίρνει, δρόμο αφήνει". Κι όπως το αποδίδει η μεταφράστρια εδώ μια χαρά μου φαίνεται, δεν θα το άλλαζα. Αυτό με τον Αρχάγγελο συμφωνώ, καλύτερα να το αλλάξεις.
 

Neikos

Member
Μόλις κοίταξα και στο ΛΚΝ, αν και έπρεπε να το είχα κάνει πριν γράψω βέβαια. Γιατί λες ότι δεν βοηθάει; Όντως σαν επίρρημα για να δηλώσει την πορεία πάνω στο μονοπάτι. Είτε στρατί σκέτο, είτε στρατί-στρατί το ίδιο είναι, ίσως να διπλασιάζεται και για το μέτρο στα τραγούδια.

"(ως επίρρ.) ~ ~ , για να δηλώσουμε την πορεία επάνω στο δρόμο:
Πήραμε ~ ~ το μονοπάτι."
 
Thanks, Neikos. I think the ΛΚΝ entry seemed puzzling because I took it to mean 'to state the course of direction on the road'. What does that mean? 'They took the path track by track', is how I translated it. The picture in my mind is of a path going somewhere where people from side tracks filter in and join the main procession. Am I right?:(
 

daeman

Administrator
Staff member
...
I read the adverbial expression στρατί-στρατί as something like "step by step".
 
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