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Thread: an off-layer

  1. #21
    HandyMod drsiebenmal's Avatar
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    Ενδιαφέρον. Βιογραφικό της ποιήτριας (από το ίδιο βιβλίο). Απομένει να μας πει ο Θησέας μήπως ήταν και η γυναίκα που έδωσε τη συνέντευξη στην τηλεόραση...

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    Wer die Wahrheit nicht weiß, der ist bloß ein Dummkopf. Aber wer sie weiß, und sie eine Lüge nennt, der ist ein Verbrecher!
    We base decisions on facts, not superstition, not what our ideology tells us but rather what we can observe

    δεῖ δὲ χρημάτων, καὶ ἄνευ τούτων οὐδὲν ἔστι γενέσθαι τῶν δεόντων
    Η Ελλάδα είναι Ευρώπη, η Ευρώπη είναι Ελλάδα!

  2. #22
    Administrator nickel's Avatar
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    Η ωριαία πρωινή εκπομπή του BBC «Woman's Hour» αφιέρωσε μέρος όλων των εκπομπών της αυτή τη βδομάδα στην εμμηνόπαυση.

    Από τις περιγραφές των εκπομπών:

    Menopause and treatments, Meg Matthews, DPP Alison Saunders
    What treatments support women through the menopause and how can we help ourselves?
    Childcare, Menopause, Drones, Bounty Hunters
    Crime Thriller Girl, Nurseries, Menopause at work, Women and tech.
    Children and divorce, Robots, Menopause and relationships
    Menopause Poll, Professor Green, Women Shaping the Future in AI
    Woman's Hour and Radio Sheffield reveal data from a new poll about the menopause.
    Menopause phone-in. Jane Garvey and BBC Radio Sheffield's Paulette Edwards take your calls

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b007...pisodes/player

    Στην εκπομπή της Τετάρτης (εδώ: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09lw36j) οι καλεσμένες αναφέρονται έμμεσα στις off-layers από την Ουγκάντα (μετά το 13:28, μέχρι 16:00).

    Εγώ γέλασα νωρίτερα, με τη δημοσιογράφο που ανέφερε αυτό που άκουγε συχνά από γυναίκες:

    Why is it all called ‘menopause’? It has nothing to do with men!
    Μένω ΕυρώπηΣύγκρουση ιδεών, όχι βία και μισαλλοδοξία: δεν οδηγούν πουθενά. (Λ. Κύρκος)Θα περάσει κι αυτό
    ΕΝΑ ΝΗΜΑ ΤΗΝ ΗΜΕΡΑ ΤΗΝ ΑΝΙΑ ΚΑΝΕΙ ΠΕΡΑ. Staying hungry, staying foolish. Το διαδίκτυο βλάπτει όταν δεν σκέφτεσαι.

  3. #23
    Senior Member SBE's Avatar
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    So, it is my understanding in the context of Theseus that a "layer" is a hen that sits on her eggs, a sitter, a broody hen etc. which in Greek is κλώσσα (κότα).Which incidentally is also a derogatory term for someone who takes too long to do some work (πολύ το κλωσσάει το ζήτημα= he is taking too long to act on the issue). Now... I have no idea if there is a name for hens who are too old, other than to call them old (η γριά κότα έχει το ζουμί), so I have no idea how one would translate what you are asking. As for humans, the reproductive ability of a person is not an issue that is discussed in polite company and I don't know any Greek slang that specifically relates to the menopause.
    In fact, I see the issue discussed a lot more in the UK than in Greece, and I don't mean on BBC radio, where I am sure they did a good job, but in what I called earlier "polite company". For some reason, English speakers appear to me concerned about it and about other functions of the reproductive system of women (and men to an extent), which are quite often described in very negative terms (the curse, the change etc.).
    This indicates to an outsider that the main value of a woman is in her reproductive capacity and there is no value in an old woman who cannot bear children or do the housework, there appears to be little appreciation of the wisdom of old age etc. Yes, I appreciate that this is probably not the case after a century of women's rights campaigns, but it is perhaps an indication of the culture of the past.

  4. #24
    Senior Member Theseus's Avatar
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    I simply asked for the translation of a term I heard on woman's hour: that is all. The context is well illustrated in the above poem by Jemeo Nanyonjo. I had no interest then in what is said or what isn't said in polite company. The agony columns in the daily papers discuss every matter to do with male or female problems, including the menopause. [BTW, I think 'the curse' is a term no longer used, and 'the change' is more often referred to as 'the change of life'.]
    Incidentally, in school last week three women one German, one French & one British were discussing openly (I was at the time photocopying in an adjoining room) problems which in a past era were wholly taboo & with much laughter. Being 'liberated' or valuing 'freedom of speech' has led to all this. Times have changed & radically, not necessarily for the better.
    No doubt you could make a sociological analysis of the poem above.
    This matter, like several of my entries, has again led to an endless discussion. I will think twice before I submit again what I thought was merely a harmless matter of translation.
    I do agree about the old. I think it was J. B. Priestley who said that we are the first generation who treats the old not as solvers of problems but as problems themselves. Nor do I ever think of men or women in terms of their reproductive capacity.
    This query of mine was meant to be purely a matter of translation. Indeed it may be worthwhile translating the above Ugandan poem into Greek.

  5. #25
    Senior Member SBE's Avatar
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    People discuss their medical issues with other people affected by the same issues in private or semi-private situations or even in public.
    As for the poem, if it is ever translated into Greek the translator will either make up something or use standard terminology, but it is not Standard English so it is unlikely there will be a corresponding Standard Greek expression for it.

  6. #26
    Mod Almighty Palavra's Avatar
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    For my part, it's not the topic in general that bothered me. I don't believe that some topics are taboo and should not be discussed at all. It's just that I sometimes find it surprising that some languages have -and use- terms that can be construed as so mean to a whole group of people. To illustrate, this would be like talking about erectile dysfunction and trying to find an English equivalent for μαλακοκαύλης (flaccid-cock), because this word is used in vulgar slang to refer to men who face this issue. I would try and help to find a translation for it, but I would still point out that it's vulgar or offensive or whatever the case may be.

    I mean, I don't think that this is a case of freedom of speech. I just find that conversations about erectile dysfunction, menopause, sterility, menstruation, or whatever other bodily function don't really benefit from derogatory terms for people who go through them.
    The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge".
    -Isaak Asimov

  7. #27
    Senior Member Duke_of_Waltham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nickel View Post
    Εγώ γέλασα νωρίτερα, με τη δημοσιογράφο που ανέφερε αυτό που άκουγε συχνά από γυναίκες:

    Why is it all called ‘menopause’? It has nothing to do with men!
    Βλέπω στο γκουγκλ ότι κάποιοι έχουν ήδη ανακαλύψει το moonopause.
    Εἰς τὴν Ἑλλάδα οἱ Νόμοι γίνονται χάριν εἰρωνικῆς ἀντιδιαστολῆς πρὸς τὴν πραγματικότητα.

  8. #28
    Administrator nickel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Palavra View Post
    I just find that conversations about erectile dysfunction, menopause, sterility, menstruation, or whatever other bodily function don't really benefit from derogatory terms for people who go through them.
    Indeed.

    But in translation, a derogatory term should be translated with an equivalent term.

    I can understand why translators of movies or series shown on TV before the watershed have to water down some of the stronger vocabulary, but this is an exception.
    Μένω ΕυρώπηΣύγκρουση ιδεών, όχι βία και μισαλλοδοξία: δεν οδηγούν πουθενά. (Λ. Κύρκος)Θα περάσει κι αυτό
    ΕΝΑ ΝΗΜΑ ΤΗΝ ΗΜΕΡΑ ΤΗΝ ΑΝΙΑ ΚΑΝΕΙ ΠΕΡΑ. Staying hungry, staying foolish. Το διαδίκτυο βλάπτει όταν δεν σκέφτεσαι.

  9. #29
    Senior Member Theseus's Avatar
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    When I asked this question, I was only concerned with how such a Ugandan equivalent of menopause would be rendered into Greek. I did not find it humorous. It seems as if I've opened a can of worms. But it was for me, as Nickel said, a matter of translation. I had a friend who had a low sperm count. He was nicknamed Jaffa (a seedless orange) by the rest of us--not funny to him but I suppose humour was our way of coping with male sterility. We also do joke among ourselves about erectile dysfunction but Viagra has mainly obviated the 'shame' attached to that. I wasn't joking about the menopause. It would be downright insensitive to do so!
    I couldn't agree more that derogatory comments about such topics highlighted by this--seemingly-- protracted thread are no matter for humour for those, whether male or female, who are going through them.
    It seems to me that Nickel, and later the good Doctor, is the one who has kept to the question I asked & has concentrated on what I asked in #1. I don't think that in Uganda 'an off-layer' is derogatory but is the term used, viewed from the standpoint of the woman sufferer, in a culture where the male perspective about her inability to reproduce is the measure of her value.

  10. #30
    Senior Member SBE's Avatar
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    I don't know the usage in Uganda, but to me it sounds derogatory, because it likens women to battery hens. Once they can't reproduce they are useless.

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