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Thread: Νεράιδα (καλοκυρά)

  1. #11
    Senior Member Theseus's Avatar
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    Πομπή και γάνα means, does it not, "an immoral and unethical person"? Thanks. The rest is pretty clear.
    Here is another translation of the sonnet by Margaret Sparshott:

    https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...rshott&f=false.

  2. #12
    Senior Member SBE's Avatar
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    Καλοκυράδες is definitely ladies, noble women, women of noble birth. The fairytales alluded to here are the medieval tales of the brothers Grimm and the tales of Perrault, that generations of Greek kids grew up with.

    Τσίφτης και καραμπoυζουκλής= a standard expression (they usually go together) and they mean that someone is clever, resourceful and μάγκας. And therefore does not fall for the wrong explanation. Τσίφτης/ τσίφτισσα is clever, μάγκας, a person who is forward and honest in his/ her dealings. I had to look up καραμπουζουκλής, and apparently it means someone who is manly / masculine, therefore more μάγκας etc.

    As for the poem, noone killed the ogre or the dragon for his grandmother's sake (and love), to bring her the water of eternal life (whose spring is usually guarded by one of those creatures), so she is dying.

  3. #13
    Senior Member Theseus's Avatar
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    An excellent reply, SBE, to my thread! The sonnets that you referred me to have been well worth reading and studying but, as you and others have seen, Adès translation here led me astray. And Margaret Sparshott's reference to the 'angel's wings' should have been 'the Archangel's [Michael's] wings'. The way both sonnets treat of death are what has been called 'an emotional education': learning great literature about the important themes of life and death give us a language which help us cope with these subjects when we have to face them.
    Thanks also for the elucidation of the terms τσίφτης και καραμπουζούκλης.

  4. #14
    Senior Member Neikos's Avatar
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    Μιας κ αναφέρθηκε o Δημητράκος, ίσως μου λύσετε μια απορία. Το enacademic στο οποίο βρήκα τη λέξη, είναι ηλεκτρονική έκδοση του Δημητράκου ή άλλου παλιού λεξικού; Αν και συνήθως εμφανίζει αποτελέσματα από περισσότερα από ένα λεξικά. Κι αν είναι του Δημητράκου, δίνει απλώς τη βασική ερμηνεία της λέξης χωρίς το επιπλέον υλικό που απ' ό,τι καταλαβαίνω υπάρχει στην έντυπη έκδοση, όπως παραδείγματα χρήσης, λογοτεχνικά αποσπάσματα κλπ;

    (Θησέα, είναι εύκολο να κάνεις μια αντιγραφή-επικόλληση της μετάφρασης της Sparshott από τα γκουγκλοβιβλία σε κανονικό κείμενο στη Λεξιλόγια, επειδή με τον Όπερα που έχω στο παλαιολιθικό κινητό μου, δεν μπορώ να το διαβάσω;)

  5. #15
    Senior Member SBE's Avatar
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    Since both these poems, Theseus, were taught at school when I was a kid (Λήθη in modern Greek and the one on grandmother's death was in the anthologies we were given), Ι think that a look through Greek schoolbooks would be beneficial for cultural as well as linguistic reasons. The links I provided were from schoolbooks online. After that, every Greek song will make sense (with some exceptions).

  6. #16
    Senior Member Theseus's Avatar
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    Thanks, SBE. I will follow up what you have written. Neikos, here is the translation of Margaret Sparshott:-

    One by one they took the path
    The princesses and ladies fair,
    Upon their horses gallant knights,
    And king's from far off lands were there.

    Who knows what songs they sang to her
    As round my Grandmother's bedside
    They passed between the candle flames
    That flickering softly leapt and died.

    No-one for love of my poor old Gran
    Would kill the Dragon or Bogeyman
    Water of life to bring!
    Yet my mother kneeling by the bed-
    Once upon a time-heard overhead
    The beat of an angel's wing.

    For the last line I would write:- 'The beat of the Archangel's [Michael's] wing'.
    What really does στρατί στρατί mean? ΛΚΝ doesn't really help.

  7. #17
    Senior Member Neikos's Avatar
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    Ευχαριστώ, Θησέα.
    Νομίζω πως σημαίνει διασχίζω τον έναν δρόμο μετά τον άλλο, ξεκινώ μια μεγάλη πορεία για κάπου. Η επανάληψη μάλλον δίνει έμφαση στη μεγάλη απόσταση, στη διάρκεια του ταξιδιού. Θα το συναντήσεις συνήθως στα δημοτικά τραγούδια, σε διάφορες παραλλαγές, πχ παίρνω το δρόμο, το στρατί / παίρνω το στρατί-στρατί / παίρνω το στρατί, το μονοπάτι / παίρνω το δρόμο-δρόμο κλπ. Στα παραμύθια συνήθως είναι "δρόμο παίρνει, δρόμο αφήνει". Κι όπως το αποδίδει η μεταφράστρια εδώ μια χαρά μου φαίνεται, δεν θα το άλλαζα. Αυτό με τον Αρχάγγελο συμφωνώ, καλύτερα να το αλλάξεις.

  8. #18
    Senior Member Neikos's Avatar
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    Μόλις κοίταξα και στο ΛΚΝ, αν και έπρεπε να το είχα κάνει πριν γράψω βέβαια. Γιατί λες ότι δεν βοηθάει; Όντως σαν επίρρημα για να δηλώσει την πορεία πάνω στο μονοπάτι. Είτε στρατί σκέτο, είτε στρατί-στρατί το ίδιο είναι, ίσως να διπλασιάζεται και για το μέτρο στα τραγούδια.

    "(ως επίρρ.) ~ ~ , για να δηλώσουμε την πορεία επάνω στο δρόμο:
    Πήραμε ~ ~ το μονοπάτι."

  9. #19
    Senior Member Theseus's Avatar
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    Thanks, Neikos. I think the ΛΚΝ entry seemed puzzling because I took it to mean 'to state the course of direction on the road'. What does that mean? 'They took the path track by track', is how I translated it. The picture in my mind is of a path going somewhere where people from side tracks filter in and join the main procession. Am I right?

  10. #20
    Senior Member daeman's Avatar
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    ...
    I read the adverbial expression στρατί-στρατί as something like "step by step".
    Θεωρητικά, θεωρία και πράξη είναι το ίδιο πράγμα. Στην πράξη, όμως, διαφέρουν.
    When this you see, remember me and bear me in your mind, let all the world say what they may, speak of me as you find.

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